CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

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blackhatch
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby blackhatch » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:12 pm

Being one of the people that was affected by this I will weigh in. Whilst I agree that the new rules were not the best changes to the system. I am one who gave up on the old exams, and applied for the new licence. Based on my licence being issued in early Nov I accepted a position as Chief Engineer, mow I am told that even though my licence was issued I may not get it. Therefore I cannot fill my new position. But I am sure the Bank will understand, come mortgage day, that some idiot had a brain fart then tried to change it back before anybody noticed!!!!

As for getting your licence the "proper" way, being able to memorise questions and answers to 4 papers does not necessarily make you a good Engineer!! Martins statement is correct, peoples livelihoods are being affected. To anyone who has been affected by this contact your MP demand answers.

I am not saying SSB05/2017 was the right way to go, but if you issue somebody a certificate, no matter what it be, and then you decide you were wrong, there has to be some compromise to mitigate the effects on peoples employment

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The Dieselduck
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Statement from Transport Canada

Postby The Dieselduck » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:19 pm

I reached out to Transport Canada Media Relations for a statement on the Ship Safety Bulletin situation. You can find their response, just below, and the questions they were asked, below that.

Being a government response, it is very vague, and not really clear in answering my questions. For one, sounds like if you have been issued a CoC under the SSB when it was active, your good to go. Those, like me, who have application in the pipe, will be affected, how, it does not state. What the issues are, they don't say. But they should be issuing a new SSB in short order - not convinced, but okay.


Good afternoon Martin,

Ship Safety Bulletin Number 05/2017 (“Update on how to meet STCW 2010 Manila Convention Requirements for Officers and Ratings of the Engine Department”) has been rescinded as of November 7, 2017. A new ship safety bulletin will follow in the coming weeks and will apply to seafarers whose applications have not yet been fully processed and to seafarers making a new application.

Transport Canada is assessing issues that have arisen as a result of the Ship Safety Bulletin Number 05/2017 being rescinded. Once the assessment is complete, Transport Canada will contact those seafarers directly affected.

Transport Canada staff will process all pending and future applications, with affected applications treated on a priority basis.

Regards,
www.tc.gc.ca


Envoyé : lundi, novembre 13, 2017 7:28 PM
Objet : Info on cancelation of SSB 05 2017

Hi there,

My peers and I are perplexed at the sudden change of course on the certification process for Marine Engineers in Canada. The sudden cancellation of the Ship Safety Bulletin (SSB) and the lack of clear updated regulations is resulting in many questions. I read on the website that Transport Canada Marine Safety is planning to release another SSB to cover this topic, but is there any way you can provide some context to these issues, as they have a very real and significant impact on the average Marine Engineer in Canada.

For instance, the following questions come to mind:

• Are the Certificate of Competency that were issued under the aforementioned SSB valid?
• Does the licensing system “revert” to the exiting Personnel Regulations TP2293 – CoC issued not compliant with STCW2010?
• What happens to the application to upgrade a Marine Engineering CoC that have been made, but that have not been processed?
• What is the time frame until we see the new SSB outlining how Marine Engineers can obtain STCW2010 compliant CoC?
• What kind of additional resources, if any, are being deployed to remedy this situation and deal with backlogs?

Martin Leduc
Certified Marine Engineer and Webmaster
Martin's Marine Engineering Page
http://www.dieselduck.net

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JollyJack
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby JollyJack » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:40 pm

All change! CoCs issued under the SSB are valid until HQ in Ottawa says they are not.
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blackhatch
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby blackhatch » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:10 pm

Spoke to Elizabeth in HQ in Ottawa last night, and my issued licence is now cancelled. As will many others be shortly. This is ridiculous. When I asked how they managed to screw this up so badly she answered "don't know that's what we are trying to figure out". Anybody know a good Class action Lawyer??

Ratherbeonvacation
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby Ratherbeonvacation » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:02 pm

Blackhatch... I also was told mine was issued but when I went to pick it up it was "on hold". To be honest it's not like I was expecting it. After being in the industry now for almost 17yrs and dealing with TC's processes and procedures, it seemed to good to be true. But then on the other hand after working internationally for over 10 of those years, it was only the same as any other country, who had the "quick way to the top" system and also held degrees when they finished school. I held a diploma that wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Someone dropped the ball big time. I know guys who applied after me and had certs issues within weeks without any word or questions. Just showed up in the mail. Me personally and a few other people who did not receive theirs had contact from their reviewing examiner saying the process could take up to 180 days and would receive a letter saying how they were assessed, stating why or why not they were issued the certificate. It did not really affect me but I feel bad for the guys who were issued certificates and probably quit or thought they were moving up. The examiner who was dealing with my files told me "all applications are on hold, including those that have been issued". I would like to see something official on this soon.

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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby Aavenger » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:51 pm

Just returned from TC went in to renew my 2CL Motor,had all the refresher done and advanced 1st aid.Went in to get my ticket renewed and
apply the new courses to my file.Was told its all under review by ottaw and more changes coming?I am quite happy with my Ticket and its served
me very well for many years...Is my present ticket STCW 2010 compliant I wonder If I want to go overseas is it compliant ?Will I compete with others
who have a "new" first class Whatever that is?Really a clusterf%$k if you ask me.

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JollyJack
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby JollyJack » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:24 am

I have no Idea who "Elizabeth in Ottawa" is, it's not a name I recognize. The STCW 2010 Chief Engineer, issued under SSB 05/2010, exceeds the requirements of STCW 2010, but falls far short of Canadian Marine Personnel Regulations and TP 2293. The problem, as I see it, is if we are to align with STCW 2010, the standards in the MPR and TP 2293, Canadian standards, must be dumbed down to meet STCW 2010. As it is, for now, we are in limbo, so have reverted to the 2007 Marine Personnel Regulations and that is where it will stay until it gets sorted out.

The STCW 2010 Chief Engineer is valid, if you hold one, and will remain valid until somebody in Authority in Ottawa says it's not. That will be broadcast in the same way as the cancellation of SSB 05/2017 was. Watch this space.
Discourage incest, ban country "music".

tintean
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby tintean » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:39 am

It should never have been instituted in the first place. If you want the ticket, serve the time and do the exams. How the hell can you justify giving 1st class tickets to guys who yesterday only had 3rds and 4ths.

Aavenger
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby Aavenger » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:40 am

Been speaking with a former ship mate who has
A 4th class ticket,He now has a 3rd class good up
To 3000kw as chief(same as my second class)I saw this
And he has been riding on it.It wa one of the stcw 2010
This chap has no mathematics at all!He tells me
He can write general knowledge and motor and
Will receive a 2nd class.Makes you wonder how
It will all end up several of these chaps have Attained this 3rd class!Comments ?

wes
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby wes » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:22 pm

Just wanted to echo what someone else said...just because you memorize the answers to a few math & electro questions does not mean you are a better engineer than others. No one cares if you "went the hard way". Experience still is king, why do people forget this? No one is going to hire you to be chief engineer on a super tanker if all your experience is working on tug boats on the great lakes...can we please stop pretending that?

I have a question... are oral exams gone? I don't see mention of this in the SSB. To me that is still the best way to determine if someone is ready...after all being a good engineer isn't just about doing book work, that's why we have had oral exams in the past, right?

To avenger.. I think that's absolutely fair (as long as orals has to be done. the TC inspector still has say doesn't he?). How much sea time do they have, and where was it accumulated? 3000kW is not that large. Are we going to pretend that you need to the best papers to be chief on a tugboat or a small coast guard vessel? Again that is ridiculous. Even for III/3 you still need MAFA and PPS2...it's almost the same except for sea service, which is all that should matter right?

A large part of being chief engineer IS paperwork and dealing with the office AND being a manager (on a large vessel)..so again, what is the problem? On a smaller vessel, the role of a chief engineer is much more hands on, more like a 2nd engineer. Right?

In my mind I don't see a problem with the new regulations, except that there should be "something" that sets apart first class from second...the rest don't matter. My only hope/gripe is that they are probably going to force us to go to one of the colleges to upgrade (and pay lots of money) now instead of being able to study on your own. I hope the study on your own option is still kept, but I don't see that happening from what our insiders here have said in the past. That's kinda sad, but at the end of the day does it really matter, it still will prove the same level of competency for the written side and just cost us more time and money. As long as we still need to do the orals and write the general/motor..which I think are very important.

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JollyJack
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby JollyJack » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:02 am

The new SSB has reinstated the Marine Personnel Regulations, or, if you like, you want the ticket, you do ALL the Exams. There are a few additions, too. All levels require training in Marine Law and Ships Business, and a course in Leadership and Team Management. There are additional Exams in 3rd Class (Nav Arc) and 4th Class.(Maths, Mechanics, Thermo, Navarc and Electro.)

For the moment, these Exams are still taken at TC Centres, as far as I know.

Annex 1
How to obtain a Certificate of Competence (CoC) that meets the STCW 2010 Manila requirements.

1. To obtain a First Class Engineer, motor ship or steamship CoC (STCW), a person must:
1.1 Meet all the requirements provided by section 144 of the Marine Personnel Regulations;
1.2 Provide a training certificate in “Leadership and Managerial skills”; and
1.3 Pass an oral examination on the following subjects: “Maritime Law and Ship’s Business.”

The oral examination of the item 1.3 will be included in the subjects covered in the oral examination set out in section 144 of the MPR, and the knowledge assessed will be the subject of a preparatory document provided by the Transport Canada Examination Centres to the candidates prior to the oral examination.

2. To obtain a Second Class Engineer, motor ship or steamship CoC (STCW), a person must:
2.1 Meet all the requirements provided by section 145 of the Marine Personnel Regulations;
2.2 Provide a training certificate in “Leadership and Managerial skills”; and
2.3 Pass an oral examination on the following subjects: “Maritime Law and Ship’s Business.”

The oral examination from item 2.3 will be included in the subjects covered in the oral set out in section 145 of the MPR, and the knowledge assessed will be the subject of a preparatory document provided by the Transport Canada Examination Centres to the candidates prior to the oral examination.

3. To obtain a Third Class Engineer, motor ship or steamship CoC (STCW), a person must:
3.1 Meet all the requirements provided by section 146 of the Marine Personnel Regulations;
3.2 Pass a written examination in naval architecture;
3.3 Provide a training certificate in “Leadership and Management skills”; and
3.4 Pass an oral examination on the following subjects: “Maritime Law and Ship’s Business”

The oral examination from item 3.4 will be included in the subjects covered in the oral examination set out in section 146 of the MPR, and the knowledge assessed in items 3.2 and 3.4 will be the subject of a preparatory document provided by the Transport Canada Examination Centres to the candidates prior to the oral examination.

4. To obtain a Fourth Class Engineer, motor ship or steamship CoC (STCW), a person must:
4.1 Meet all the requirements provided by section 147 of the Marine Personnel Regulations;
4.2 Pass examinations on the following subjects:
 applied mathematics;
 applied mechanics;
 thermodynamics;
 electro-technology; and
 naval architecture.

4.3 Provide a training certificate in “Leadership and Teamwork skills”; and

4.4 Take an oral examination on the following subjects: “Maritime Law and Ship’s Business”
The oral examination from item 4.4 will be included in the subjects covered in the oral examination set out in section 147 of the MPR, and the knowledge assessed in items 4.2 and 4.4 will be the subject of a preparatory document provided by the Transport Canada Examination Centres to the candidates prior to the oral examination.
Discourage incest, ban country "music".

Ratherbeonvacation
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby Ratherbeonvacation » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:37 am

What about certificates that were already issued and people that are using them? When will these courses be made available for people? how long are they going to be? all this should be ready to go if they are rolling out these new requirements.

wes
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby wes » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:38 pm

Thanks JJ. This is good news IMO.
I wonder if the cadet program still covers us for those exams up to 2nd class? Or are we covered for the exams except for the new ones added?

Revolver
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby Revolver » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:31 pm

35 hours, so they're a week long.
Probably run about $1400-1800.
Marine institute offers leadership very rarely....

Ratherbeonvacation
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Re: CoC as per STCW 2010 Manila Convention

Postby Ratherbeonvacation » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:23 am

So all exams will be required for 1st class..plus the leadership and management course and another orals for maritime law? Went from doing nothing to more in 5 months? Wow. TC at its finest!!

And what about certificates that were already issued and people that are using them since this screw up? Did some just win the TC lottery and fall through a major loop hole?


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