EOOW

Going through the licensing process ? Have queries, comments, or do you need an answer to that obscure exam question ? This is the place to post.
Turbo
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EOOW

Postby Turbo » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:49 am

Hi all,

I've been checking the site out for the last few weeks and there's some really good information, so thanks for that.

I'm in the Royal Navy (UK) at the moment as a submariner. (Marine Engineering Artificer - Nuclear/Steam Propulsion)
I am leaving in October and want to join the Merchant Navy or Yachts (Not sure yet). I applied and received my Letter of Initial Assessment from the MCA.
They told me I had to do my EOOW (Motor) Oral Examination ONLY and then get a job as a 3rd or 4th Engineer.

I am not being 'picked up' by any companies as a 'trainee' because I only have to do the oral board (It also mentioned 3 months as sea-time as EOOW I could sit my 2nd Engineer oral and written etc) they don't want me which leaves me in a difficult position.

I have to study and do my EOOW oral without ever having been on a civilian ship and I would really like to know if anyone could recommend any good study material or information - I noticed a poster mentioned something on automatic fail questions? Is there a specific oral preparation study guide for EOOW? Or even sample questions so I know I'm on the right track?

If anyone could provide some advice or information that would be great.

Thanks in advance!

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Big Pete
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Re: EOOW

Postby Big Pete » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:25 pm

Hi Turbo,

Welcome to the site, congratulations on seeing sense and deciding to leave the grey funnel line and join the real Senior service!
(We have more, and bigger ships too but I'll try not to rub it in.)

With your steam experience I think you should initially look at large oil Tankers or LNG tankers, but discuss that with JOB Agencies..

Most Oil tankers have diesel engines for main propulsion but many still have large steam turbine driven alternators alternators and cargo pumps. They usually have oil fired boilers as well as ones fired by the exhaust gas from the main engine.

LNG tankers carry cargoes of Liquid Natural Gas, traditionally as this warms up during the voyage, it is allowed to "Boil Off" and the gas is burnt in boilers to provide steam for propulsion and power generation.


The EOOW certificate is a very basic safety check for watch keeping Motormen and with your experience in the Andrew you should have no problem with it.
For information on training & exams try South Tyneside College Tel +44 (0) 191 427 3772 e mail :- marine@stc.ac.uk Website:- http://www.stc.ac.uk/marine
They are very helpful on the phone, but do your research on the website so you don't waste their time asking too many stupid questions!!!!

For employment I would initially contact manning Agencies, the civilian equivalent of the Press Gang.

http://www.faststream.co.uk, e mail:- seagoing@faststream.co.uk or phone +44 (0) 23 8020 8820


Merchant Navy Resources Ltd email:- info@mnrltd.com phone:- 0044 (0) 151 291 1010

Have a look on the websites first, to do your research, then phone them.

THESE GUYS ARE REALLY MOTIVATED TO HELP YOU FIND A JOB. THEY GET A BOUNTY FROM THE SHIPOWNERS FOR EACH WARM BODY THEY PRODUCE.

I would also suggest you look at nautilusint.org the website of our Union newspaper for more Agencies and job adverts direct from shipping companies.

Good luck.

BP
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Re: EOOW

Postby Turbo » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:01 am

Big Pete,

Thanks for a good reply, transferring across to get a nice big room to myself instead of 18 to a room on the submarine!

It's just simple things I'm struggling to understand, with EOOW I can apparently work as a 3rd or 4th engineer, on my Letter of Initial Assessment it just says 3 months sea time as EOOW then I can do my 2nd Engineer exams as I said, so I could apply for a job as a 3rd or 4th Engineer?

What about getting a job, will I be at a disadvantage having come from the RN?

Anyone had experience with CD ROM Engineer Examiner OOW?

Once I've completed my EOOW oral board I'll definitely check out those links, good sites and hopefully all will be well!

I got some of my old Royal Navy books out, with CPP etc in them.

How in-depth do I need to know about refrigeration, hydraulics other than how the system works and major components? I just mean would I be expected to draw the insides of a refrigeration compressor for the oral board? and so on...?

Thanks again,

Turbo

Thanks

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Big Pete
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Re: EOOW

Postby Big Pete » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:09 pm

Hi Turbo,

The usual caveate :- all answers are only my opinion as they say...

I believe that with EOOW you can apply for a job as 3rd or 4th Engineer. I would suggest that you do the college course for EOOW this is more to familiarise yourself with MN culture and terminology than for the Technical knowledge you will gain. It will also boost your confidence and enable you to meet other people at the same stage in the MN as you will be.
South Tyneside College also offers many other courses that are useful for Marine Engineers. I don't know if the Forces will pay for you to go on training courses to help you find civilian work but if they will I would go for all the relevant courses you can!!
Particularly welding, Electrical Engineering for Marine Engineers and Electronic control systems, refrigeration & AC, Engine Room simulation and anything else you can find on the college website. Unless you have already got certificates for this type of course.


You must understand the reason why we have large single cabins instead of "hot bunking" 40 people in Broadside messes is because we run Destroyer sized ships with a total complement of 12 from the Captain down. We do much of our own maintenance and only stop carrying cargo for about 10 days every 5 years for Dry Docking. Big shock after the RN!!!!

Large numbers of Coasters, offshore supply boats, platform standby boats and smaller deep sea ships etc run with a total Engine Department consisting of the Chief Engineer and the Second Engineer. Both will normally work 08-00 to 17-00 carrying out routine planned maintenance et.
They will alternate spending 24 hours on duty, usually 08-00 to 08-00. While on duty they will have to man the engine room for arrival / departure from Port, working Oil Platforms, if required by the Master for bad visibily weather etc or in the event of a failure of the automation/ alarm systems. On tankers they will also have to man the Engine Room during cargo operations and in many cases the duty Eng will have to pump the Ballast in or out as cargo is worked. I
n any event , the duty engineer will be expected to make a thorough inspection of all the plant, at least 3 times a day. First when he takes over duty, usually 08-00, secondly before going UMS (unmanned machinery spaces) at 17-00 hrs and a third time before going to bed at night.
The machinery is all automated and the alarms are connected to the duty Engineers cabin. If anything goes wrong You will be woken by flashing lights and buzzers going off in your cabin and various Public rooms on board the ship. Then you have to go down and fix it on your own. (If you can). Some ships also have personal pagers for the duty engineers which means they are free to roam the rest of the ship while on duty, otherwise you have to stay within earshot of the alarms on the Bridge, your cabin or the messroom. Some ships you will only get called out by alarms occassionally others it may regularly be 5 or 6 times a night. A lot depends on the general condition of the Engine Room, the rest on how well you put your babies to bed.
You will then have a few minutes to get down to the Engine Control room and accept the alarm before the the General Alarms goes off throughout the ship and everyone has to get up and investigate what is happening!!!! ( Makes you very unpopular).



On that sort of ship you will work for 8 hours, be first on call for 16 hours, work for 8 hours and be second on call for 16 hours and repeat this cycle until you go home on leave.
The benefit is that you will usually get 1 days paid leave for every day on board. Usually something like 28 days on board 28 at home.

To get the initial job as Third or 4th Engineer you are probably going to have to look at larger ships with bigger crews e.g:-

Off shore construction / Diving support
Passenger cruise liners / passenger ferries
Large Tankers, Containers ships, RoRo s etc.
Royal Fleet Auxiliaries, M.O.D. Srategic Ro.Ros

These ships will carry a larger Engine Room crew, (Third and possibly a 4th Engineer) and usually an Electrical Engineer or ETO, and Motormen to assist the Engineers and do the cleaning and painting. This means you will be duty Engineer less frequently, usually 1 night in 3.
The disadvantage is that trips will be longer, with less leave, maybe 3 months on board and 6 weeks paid leave.
I strongly suggest that you talk this over with one of the manning Agencies, I know Faststream supplies crew to yachts as well as MN ships, they really can give you a much better idea of what sort of jobs and pay will be offerred to you as EOOW.

Many years ago shipowners used to recruit Fitters from the shipyards and heavy industry and they learnt to be plant operators on the job and if they had the academic ability, understanding of systems Engineering and management they went on to become Senior Engineers.
Later Cadetships were introduced to supply more Engineers with higher Academic skills, partly because with the end of National service, going to Sea became less attractive to fitters and partly because the pyramid structure of shipboard manning became much steeper leaving less vacancies for "Professional (Uncertificated) Third Engineers" at the base.
There are many more mature Cadets entering the Industry now, and ship owners are more worried that all the Deck & Engineer Officers they trained in the 70's (like me) are all due to retire soon. They have experimented with cheap third world labour from Aisa and Eastern Europe, but generally they have not been satisfactory in the Senior Management ranks, even when they are offerred UK terms and conditions.
There has always been a trickle of ex RN people into the MN. I have sailed with an Engineer and a couple of Electricians from the RN.

Overall I do not think your RN background will count against you, but do not expect 10 years in the RN to be counted the same as 10 years in the MN. Ours is a very different culture and we are very commercially orientated. We are fighting a battle 24 /7 against being under cut by cheap Foreign competition, as individual people, as ships and as shipping companies. We have to remain focussed on providing better value for money than the the cheapest crews who sail around with holes in the ship's side plugged with rags.
You will find it a very different life, standards of man management are generally very poor and no training is given in this field.
There is often little control from ashore of the standards maintained on board, that is largely left to the Captains and Chief Engineers on board and depends on their knowledge and interest in the ship.

I haven't come across CD ROM Engineer Examiner EOOW. I got my Chief Engineers Cert 30 years ago, long before CDs were invented.

I would check out those links now, it will not take long to do a bit of research on line and it won't cost much to make a few phone calls. You are talking about the rest of your life here!!
MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE GETTING IN TO!!

The Orals for EOOW are basic and safety orientated.

I remember an RN ship that became a CTL because a junior rating spotted a broken thermometer on a generator LO cooler and tried to change it.
Unfortunatly he unscrewed the thermometer pocket while the engine was running, the oil jetted up onto the exhaust manifold and the machinery spaces were burnt out.
The Oral examiner will be looking to see that you won't be doing something like that.
The Chief Engineers and Second Engineers will always tell you ""If in doubt, call me out"" and they mean it.
We would all much rather be called out for a minor problem, than half an hour later to release the CO2 system into a burnt out engine room.
Again, for up to date information, look on the MCA and college web sites and phone them for a chat, you will save yourself a lot of wasted time and effort if you do that at the start.
EOOWs were not required to have a Certificate at all in my day as one. Only the Chief & 2nd Engineers had tickets in those days. In depth technical knowledge usually comes with the Second & Chief Engineer's training, but sadly, not always.

Good luck.

BP.
Last edited by Big Pete on Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JollyJack
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Re: EOOW

Postby JollyJack » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:41 am

In Canada, there is a direct relationship between Navy and STCW qualifications, they are enumerated here :-

The Examination and Certification of Seafarers TP 2293E
Chapter 2 – Administration of Examinations and Eligibility Revision no. 5

2.8 ENGINEERING CERTIFICATES
1) An applicant must meet the following requirements in order to be eligible for direct examination:

a) complete marine emergency duties training courses appropriate to the certificate applied for; and
b) complete propulsion plant simulator training at the appropriate level for the certificate applied for.

2) Regardless of section 2.5, no exemptions will be allowed for examinations in general engineering knowledge, engineering knowledge of motor vessels, engineering knowledge of steamships, or general engineering knowledge of small vessels, or for the written examination on the duties of an engine-room rating or for oral examinations.

3) Credit will be given, in accordance with Table VI, to Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) naval personnel who apply for a marine engineer certificate. CAF personnel applying for a marine engineer examination must supply the following information, substantiated with the proper documentation (Reference: Forms CFP-245 and CF-1110):

a) Date of joining and leaving the CAF;
b) Technical certificates issued and their dates of issue; and
c) Sea service testimonials, giving details of the vessels’ main propulsion machinery, the nature of the duties performed by the applicant and the number of days spent at sea. (sea day"s" are calculated at 1.5 days per day according to TP2293, 3.7 (1)(a) ) (my italics)

Table VI
CAF Certificate Credit
Certificate 1 Remission of 15 months’ qualifying service toward Fourth-Class Engineer certificate, Motor Ship or Steamship. Also qualifies as having completed the requirements of TP-13721 (Training Record Book Requirements for Applicants to the Fourth-Class Engineer Certificate)

Certificate 1 and 21 months’ sea service while holding Certificate 1, Qualifies to write examinations for Fourth-Class Engineer certificate, Motor Ship or Steamship, depending on sea service

Certificate 1 and 24 months’ sea service while holding Certificate 1, Qualifies to write examinations for Fourth-Class Engineer certificate, Motor Ship and Steamship (4M-4S), provided that a minimum of three months’ sea service was acquired on a motor vessel and three months’ service on a steamship

Certificate 2A Qualifies to write examinations for Fourth-Class Engineer, Steamship certificate

Certificate 2B or 2C or 2D or 2E Qualifies to write examinations for Fourth-Class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate

Certificate 2A and 12 months’ sea service on a steamship while holding Certificate 2A, Qualifies to write examinations for Third-Class Engineer, Steamship certificate

Certificate 2B or 2C or 2D or 2E, and 12 months’ sea service on a motor vessel or gas turbine vessel while holding any of these certificates Qualifies to write examinations for Third-Class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate

Certificate 2A and 2B, 2C, 2D or 2E, and 15 months’ sea service while holding any of these certificates, Qualifies to write examinations for Third-Class Engineer certificate, Motor Ship or Steamship, provided a minimum of six months’ sea service was acquired on a motor or gas turbine vessel and six months’ service on a steamship

Certificate 3A Qualifies to write examinations for Third-Class Engineer, Steamship certificate

Certificate 3B or 3C or 3D or 3E Qualifies to write examinations for Third-Class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate

Certificate 3A and 12 months’ sea service on a steamship while holding Certificate 3A, Qualifies to write examinations for Second-Class Engineer, Steamship certificate

Certificate 3B or 3C or 3D or 3E and 12 months’ sea service on a motor or gas turbine ship while holding any of these certificates, Qualifies to write examinations for Second-Class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate

Certificate 3A and 3B or 3C or 3D or 3E and 15 months’ sea service while holding these certificates, Qualifies to write examinations for Second-Class Engineer certificate, Motor Ship or Steamship, provided a minimum of six months’ sea service was acquired on a motor or gas turbine vessel and six months’ service on a steamship

Certificate 4 Qualifies to write examinations for Second-Class Engineer certificate, Motor Ship or Steamship, provided a minimum of six months’ sea service was acquired on a motor or gas turbine vessel and six months’ service on a steamship

Certificate 1 Auxiliary Machinery Operato
Certificate 2A Boiler Room Watchkeeper
Certificate 2B Diesel Engine Room Watchkeeper
Certificate 2C Submarine Engine Room Watchkeeper (Diesel Electric Propulsion)
Certificate 2D Combined Gas and Gas Turbine (COGOG) Control Console Watchkeeper
Certificate 2E Combined Diesel and Gas Turbine (CODOG) Control Console Watchkeeper
Certificate 3A Steam Turbine Watchkeeper
Certificate 3C Submarine Machinery Certificate (Diesel Electric Propulsion)
Certificate 3D Combined Gas and Gas Turbine (COGOG) Watchkeeper
Certificate 3E Combined Diesel and Gas Turbine (CODOG) Watchkeeper
Certificate 4 Marine Engineer Certificate

4) Applicants from the CAF may be exempted from certain examination subjects required for the purpose of obtaining a certificate on the basis of their qualification level in the following Marine Engineering Technician and Marine Engineering Artificer occupations: 312 (Apprentice), 313 (Journeyman), and 314 (Supervisor/Manager) (Ref. Forms CFP-245 and CF1110). The exemptions are shown on Table VII.

Table VII
Qualification Level Exempted from
Occupational Qualification QL-5 or Occupational Qualification QL-6

Applied Mathematics, Applied Mechanics, Thermodynamics and Electrotechnology examinations at the third-class engineer level;

Applied Mechanics, Thermodynamics and Electrotechnology examinations at the second-class engineer level

Occupational Qualification QL-7
Applied Mathematics, Applied Mechanics, Thermodynamics and Electrotechnology examinations at the third-class engineer level;

Applied Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Electrotechnology and Naval Architecture examinations at the second-class engineer level

Note 1 – The above CAF Naval qualifications do not exempt any applicant from the Technical Drawing examination at the second-class engineer level.

Note 2 – Exemption from the second-class engineer examination in Naval Architecture is granted only to holders of the QL-7 qualification.

Note 3 – Applicants who have a CAF certificate of qualification at level 2, or can prove successful completion of the QL-5 academic training program and the workshop skills application course, are exempt from the training requirement set out in section 147 of the Marine Personnel Regulations and described in TP 13720 (Practical Skills for Marine Engineers
Training Course)

5) Applicants who were commissioned engineering officers of the CAF (former Royal Canadian Navy division) must submit full documentation regarding qualifying service ashore and at sea as well as transcripts of marks obtained in naval examination subjects. All such documentation will be forwarded to headquarters in Ottawa, which will be responsible for assessing it and ruling on the basis of the general criteria set out in this chapter for the assessment of other service, and the current requirements set out in the Marine Personnel Regulations. Each case will be treated on its own merits.

6) Applicants from the Reserve or Regular Forces who do not have any of the certificates listed in CFP-245 will not be granted any credit for their training in the CAF, and the assessment of their qualifying service will be carried out in accordance with the general provisions of the Marine Personnel Regulations.

The full Technical Publication from Transport Canada, TP2293, is here:-

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp ... u-2254.htm

and the Marine Personnel Regulations are here:- http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/SOR-2007-115/

I'm quite sure that the UK has a similar arrangement, they are. after all, a STCW "White List" country and are compliant with all STCW standards.
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Turbo
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Re: EOOW

Postby Turbo » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:05 am

Hi,

Sorry for late reply, been pretty busy this week.

I understand what you're saying about the bigger cabins and smaller crews and more work! I knew that anyway but it is attractive having a large cabin alone but it's an added selling point to me!

At the end of the day, I am a Marine Engineer in the RN and wish to be a Marine Engineer in the MN, if 10 years RN isn't going to count for the same in the Merchant then I accept that but when it comes to working on various systems, pumps, motors etc I have carried out maintenance on them all at different levels, daily, monthly, annual, 2 annual and so on and so the experience is there. As Marine Engineers there's always a difference between ships but fundamentally they are the same, I understand there will be a different in routines, terminology etc which will take a bit of getting used to but I don't think enrolling on a year long EOOW cadetship course would help me, (well obviously it would in some respects but it's unrealistic for me to do that.) As I said, I completed a four year apprenticeship with the RN and have a Foundation Degree in Marine Systems Engineering which follows pretty similar to the cadetships anyway. With my Letter of Initial Assessment it requires me to do 3 months service as an EOOW to get experience on civilian ships before I am eligible to do my 2nd Engineer examinations and oral. From the various people in the Merchant Navy I have spoken to they seem to look down on the Royal Navy for some reason.

The reason I want to transfer to the Merchant is the time on/time off routines, I'd much rather work like that than 9-5 Mon - Fri in a Power Station or something similar and more importantly I'm interested in ships too, also the tax free element is a big bonus.

I was really just after some good revision material for going for the EOOW 'alone' and some sort of format.

I really appreciate you taking the time to provide advice and information and those links have been very useful already so I thank you for that.
JollyJack, I'm sure there is something similar in the UK, not sure where the guidance notes are but they recognised the apprenticeship and sea time but I don't think the actual qualifications after that.

Thanks again,

Turbo

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Big Pete
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Re: EOOW

Postby Big Pete » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:07 pm

Hi Turbo,

Good to hear from you. Glad we haven't put you off trying the MN. I am sure some of the hostility you get from MN people will be fear of the unknown or fear that you may know more than they do.
Basically, ships are ships, engines are engines and people are people, however, life on a MN ship will be very different to an RN one.
There are a few people in the MN, like myself, who are RN rejects, often because of eyesight, personally I was in the Naval Cadet Force at School and read all the Naval History I could get hold of from the age of 11, so I may be more sympathetic than some others.

I had a quick look on the South Tyneside Web site and they offer a distant learning course for EOOW but unfortunatly the cost is £1200, nothing if you can get the Navy to pay for it, but steep if it comes out of your own pocket, also most of this will be just revision for you.

As you only have to do the orals I would contact the College directly and see if they can give tuition for the orals only, which should greatly reduce the cost.

I hope this is some help to you.
BP


Below is pasted from the college web site.:-


Marine College
Course information:
e- Learning for Engineer Officer of the Watch (III/I) Sciences
Print this page

Course summary:
These modules have been specifically written by the College staff to enable you to study these subjects at home or on-board.

Course content:
You will study the subjects covered the subjects covered by IAMI Engineering Science papers A and B:

■Applied Heat
■Applied Mechanics
■Electrotechnology
■Naval Architecture
■Mathematics
Assessment procedure:
You will be required to complete all sections of the course material which includes various 'in-text questions' (ITQ) and 'self assessment questions' (SAQ).

You will then be required to submit for marking:

■Various multiple choice questions
■Formal examination questions
Once you have completed these assessments you will be able to enter the IAMI Engineering Science A and B examinations.

Entry requirements:
A letter of initial assessment from the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency.

Qualifications achieved:
You will gain an IAMI Certificate in Engineering Science A and B, recognised by the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency.

How to apply:
To apply for this course, please visit our e-learning site.

Further information:
The charge for the course is £1200, payable before receipt of the distance learning materials. This fee includes:

■All study materials
■All assessment and tutor feedback
■Use of the College Marine Learning Centre for 2 weeks before the IAMI examination.
Available courses
If you are interested in applying for this course, please contact us for more information.
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JollyJack
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Re: EOOW

Postby JollyJack » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:46 am

Turbo, your best bet is to contact an Examiner of Engineers for his assessment. The procedure here in Canada is that RCN candidates are processed in the same way as a direct entry from overseas, eg UK, India, Russia etc. All relevant documentation is submitted to HQ in Ottawa and assessed on it's merits against the requirements for STCW and Canadian standards. The validation and authenticity of the documentation is checked and the applicant advised accordingly. You may be exempt some or all of the theory examinations, but EK and Oral exams are never exempted, so you will have to do them.

As to differences between RN and MN engineers, I found that where the RN specializes, the MN does not. The RN Tiffy might do machinery, hull or electrical, but the MN engineer does everything, from stem to stern, truck to keel, including hull, refrigeration and electrical systems.

Crews have been cut to minimum to reflect the "Minimum Safe Manning" document which specifies the minimum crew needed to take a ship from A to B. The document does not take maintenance, repair and operation of the ship into account and I have yet to see an Electrician, pumpman, Tunnelman or a Fridge Engineer on a SMD. Indeed, on some British ships, there is no cook, because a cook is not on the SMD. I was told "You want to eat? make a sandwich!" Merchant shipping is striving to achieve the lowest common denominator, which will soon be all Chinese crews.
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JollyJack
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Re: EOOW

Postby JollyJack » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:09 am

Here's a handy-dandy link to the UK MCA, specifying requirements for direct entry from the RN.

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-stcw_ ... _whole.pdf

You want to look at section 10.1.1 (3) which enumerates who, in RN rank, is elegible, and at 10.1.2 which tells you how to go about it. (Pages 55 and 56 of the Document)
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Big Pete
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Re: EOOW

Postby Big Pete » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:46 am

Hi Jolly Jack,

If you had read Turbo's first post you would know that he has already contacted the MCA and been graded.

""I applied and received my Letter of Initial Assessment from the MCA.
They told me I had to do my EOOW (Motor) Oral Examination ONLY and then get a job as a 3rd or 4th Engineer.""

BP
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Turbo
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Re: EOOW

Postby Turbo » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:09 pm

Thanks for the replies guys, sorry about the delayed response, I've been under the water!

Got my oral booked for this Friday, so hitting the books hard...

Thanks


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