How's Your CO2 System?

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JK
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How's Your CO2 System?

Post by JK »

This was discovered on a "relatively new" vessel.
So, how new is new? and why wasn't the deficiency found before the vessel went into service?
Why wasn't the Firefighting Instruction Manual (FIM) updated to the installed system?

And even worse, the system was recently serviced by the authorized service provider.
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Re: How's Your CO2 System?

Post by The Dieselduck »

I was going to make a blog entry on this. Actually pretty scary to consider. If this fundamental system has been so overlooked, makes you wonder what other corners were cut.

I was theorizing that a desk bound poorly paid clerk was in charge of drawing these instructions and plans, and they obviously lacked an adequate background in the field or the depth of knowledge to actually understand the various task they were designing, and that they are writing about. In the last two years I have been drawing up procedures for my vessel, as the previous owners had none whatsoever, and with an older boat with many quirks, procedures are not only helpful to newcomers but certainly very helpful in error trapping. But drawing procedures is a fluid process, requiring a good overview or what is being achieved, and actual depth of experience to recognize a procedure that just does not seem right and tweak and review accordingly. Of course communicating these is also critical, and generally where issues that I have seen in the past, have come down to improper translation.

But in this case it is pretty clear that this is a lot more than a "lost in translation" issue. I suspect the constant pressure to cut cost, the unavailability to experienced workforce is probably the underlying factor. Of course class is suppose to pick this up, as is the owner's representative, and multiple layers of checks and balances - so this is a major failure on their collectives parts as well.

I applaud the US Coast for bringing this up, obviously its a big concern that someone else should have "error trapped" long before it got to their "desk". I think at this point though, its a little topical to issue such a warning, without addressing the grave and fundamentals issues this situation shines a light on. This issue is I believe, is primarily a race to the bottom of the barrel, chasing the almighty penny, and in the process throwing quality out the window. Although this USCG bulletin addresses the symptoms, akin to a band aid on a compound fracture, it is pretty hard to make serious recommendations on this, when "free market at any cost" attitude is king these days.

I wish there was a system where financial benefits are tied to quality minded operators and builders. Those who have quality, and a long term vision simply cannot compete with these bottom feeder operations, so by default we all go to the bottom, which is a pretty appropriate pun for this.
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Big Pete
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Re: How's Your CO2 System?

Post by Big Pete »

Interesting reading JK,

I think most people on board (and the Superintendants) assume that the shipyard must have installed the system correctly, and almost invariably, maintenance and inspection is contracted out.
In my experience few people on board go further into the system than to read the operating instructions.
I had one case, years ago, on a car carrier when we had an Engine Room fire and eventually evacuated the Engine Room. When the Chief Engineer and Captain went to release the CO2 they opened the vent valve to Deck before opening the pilot CO2 cylinder so that was dumped without any effect. They then realised what they had done, closed the vent and released the second Pilot cylinder which caused the system to partially operate.
The system had also recently been serviced by shoreside contractors.
After the ship had been towed into Port we checked out the system and found that the Pilot CO2 operated pistons in cylinders which in turn operated a wire pull connected to the release valves on the main cylinders. The wires passed through the operating levers and bull dog clips were fastened to the wires so that they would pull the levers over. Unfortunatly we found that the bulldog clips were not all placed at the correct distance from the valve, some never made contact with the operating lever when the wire was pulled by the piston, so those cylinders never released.
There was also a complicated CO2 Pilot system to select which cylinders would be released according to which car deck or machinery space was to be flooded. This system contained a lot of small non return valves. When opened up we found many of these blocked by rust. We eventually found that the Second Mate, who as Safety Officer had responsibility for routine shipboard inspections and maintenance of the plant, had been blowing through the lines with wet compressed air from the normal ship's work air system. The instruction manual required the system to be blown through with dry inert gas, but because none was available he had decided that it would be alright to use air. Consequently the inside of the pipelines had rusted and the valves were blocked with scale. THe effect was that because the non return valves were blocked, several Banks of cylinders failed to release, however, fortunatly this was compensated for by several Banks opening when they should have stayed closed!!!!

On another ship we had a problem with the main valve on one cylinder leaking, this pressurised the manifold which in turn caused other cylinders to open, fortunatly the main stop valve to the Engine Room remained closed.
We had a maker's man in to look at it and he said it was a very poor installation and that there should have been a vent pipe from the manifold to deck, fitted with a control orifice so that any small leakage from a cylinder valve would not cause all the cylinders to open, however, the system was installed by the same company but in a different country and they said they had been asked to supply and fit the cheapest system that complied with the rules and that was what they had done.....

All I can say is read the manual, look at the system and if you think something is wrong discuss it with other people on board!! It is quite possible that the "experts" who installed it and serviced have not thought about irt as much as you have.
Shipyards don't care if the system works or not, so long as someone will sign for the ship at the end of the Sea Trials and the Superintendant is usually under a lot of pressure to get the ship loading a cargo and earning money as soon as possible.
It is always better to ask a stupid question than to do a stupid thing.
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Re: How's Your CO2 System?

Post by jimmys »

When I go near a live CO2 system my backside starts to twitch. When I hear a Second Mate has been around it testing it and blowing air through it means I wont go near it.
The owner is responsible for the condition of the ship and the Master is the owners representative on board.
The Flag State issue all certificates and they may devolve this duty to Classification Societies but in this the flag state is still responsible.
Before any vessel enters a US port or any other country's port the Master must sign that the Safety Equipment and everything else is up to scratch. It is not the Second Mate who signs it or the Chief Engineer it is the Master and he signs as the owners representative. He cannot delegate this.
When you go to inspect a ship and I have inspected a lot, the first thing you get is this form and it is sad to say what is on the form seldom bears any resemblance to what the vessel is like.
Its easy for a GovUSA Surveyor after the event/accident to find faults as he has an appointment to investigate where the crew must answer his questions. Class Surveyors dont have this. Not so easy for them.

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Re: How's Your CO2 System?

Post by jimmys »

It is now being made clear the CO2 system in question is the Carnival Splendour and it did not operate. No word of the cause of the fire yet more complex.

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JK
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Re: How's Your CO2 System?

Post by JK »

Shipyards don't care if the system works or not, so long as someone will sign for the ship at the end of the Sea Trials
We have replaced (amongst others) two halon systems on two different ships that were built at the same yard. It was sobering to note, that even though the installation met the letter of regulations, it was barely enough to protect the ER in the event of a fire.
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Re: How's Your CO2 System?

Post by jimmys »

The specification of any system on a vessel is a matter for the owners. The naval architects on behalf of the owners design ships to meet the rules and no more. These are rule ships and most ships these days are such.
The shipyard builds to specification no more no less. No owner will pay for over specification .

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Re: How's Your CO2 System?

Post by JK »

I realize that now after over a decade fixing them( ships). We see some sights.
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Re: How's Your CO2 System?

Post by Big Pete »

On the particular system I mentioned the ship only carried a Captain and 2 Deck Officers Chief & 2nd Engineer and the company's Safety Management system made the 2nd Mate the Safety Officer & Navigating Officer as well as standing alternate Bridge watches and cargo watches with the Chief Officers and doing 8 standbys for Port arrival/ departure every week.
Typical short sea trade manning level and work load.
If a GOOD ENGINEER had read the manual he might have picked up on the requirement to use dry inert gas to blow through the system regularly. The Second Mate only picked up on the requirement to blow through the system, there was no dry, inert gas handy, so he did his best and blew the system through with wet air. In my opinion it would have been better not to blow through the system at all, as each time it was blown through it introduced more water and Oxygen to the system, increasing the corrossion. The best solution would have been to order a cylinder of Nitrogen to blow the system through with, but try getting the Super to part with the money....

Nobody expects the Captain of a large ship, like a passenger ship, to physically go round and check everything. He does not have the time or the Technical knowledge, he is only expected to make sure that somebody has ticked a box and signed a piece of paper to say that it has been done, the joys of ISM.

Another thing to look out for is the requirement that all the CO2 cylinders should be discharged, Hydraulically pressure tested, and re-charged with Nitrogen and CO2 every 10 ten years, this is often written down as 10% every year, but it is important that all the cylinders are tested over a 10 year cycle.
On several ships I have seen that the cylinders nearest the door have been tested every couple of years, while the ones at the back haven't been tested for 15 years or more!!

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Re: How's Your CO2 System?

Post by jimmys »

The forms the Master signs concerning the ship condition were going a long while before any ISM code which is a quite recent addition.
When I as a GovUK Surveyor can walk on a ship I have never seen before and find a number of deficiencies I fully expect the Master to have found them all before I get there and if Masters have not got the expertise it is time we had people who have the expertise in charge of shipping. In most cases they know the problems are there and do nothing about it. Loading passengers on to deficient ships. San Quentin is the place for them.

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Re: How's Your CO2 System?

Post by rob270 »

How soon we forget what happened locally with the Queen of Surrey.
After the Port Main engine caught fire, the Chief activated the CO2 system and over 50% of the hoses that connect the cylinders to the manifold, sheered their connection fittings (all in good condition and rated for the pressure) This resulted in most of the CO2 discharging into the CO2 room. This failure resulted in the CO2 room hatch to "blow open" , almost injuring the Chief and 1st :oops: , but thankfully also caused the CO2 room ventilation trunking to explode, which thankfully, ran through the engineroom right beside the fire and thus, extinguish it. Pure luck!

I personally witness this and now put "0" faith in Engineroom CO2 systems.
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