Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

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jimmys
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by jimmys »

During Mr Schettino's interview he was asked if he had taken control of the bridge watch and was navigating the vessel. He stated he was. This means he had informed the Bridge watchkeeper he has taken control and it is logged. He then legally issues orders for helm etc. The Master can be on the bridge for 12 hours and never take control of the vessel and until he does the Bridge watchkeeper is responsible.
I attended a casualty a supertanker that had no astern power and had come from Nigeria to the Clyde. Including Nigeria and the Clyde the Master had never taken control of the vessel even in pilotages. He was never in charge. Have a we look in Canada what you get for endangering an oil terminal. He had a second passport and left via ferry, Northern Ireland, Eire and into the Middle East.
The sea is a murky business as we see here. More to come yet.

Ps The Master is never in charge of the engine room.

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JollyJack
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by JollyJack »

JK, on TC, ssssssshhhhhhhhhh!! It's politically incorrect to highlight the failings of delegation. The poster child of this programme is on the rocks at Scaterrie Island, Cape Breton. The Miner's hull was delegated to Lloyds in 1987 and when the hull scantings were measured recently at Scaterrie, wastage was found to be 70%. Consider that maximum wastage allowed before replacement of steel is 30% (Lloyds Rules) and that the Miner's Certificates were all renewed 2 years ago, you'll get an idea of just how effective Delegation is. Consider also that she was running generators to keep ballast pumps going so that seawater accumulation could be controlled, and she had fuel aboard for 6 more days, on a tow to Turkey planned for another 36. It appears the tow broke 6 days too early.

I note that there is a huge reliance put in ISM procedures. I note also that there is absolutely no penalty for ignoring them once the Certificate is signed and the gold-embossed diploma is hanging on the wall at the office. Yes, the vessel can be detained by PSC as a "major nonconformity" if the ISM system is a mess, but Flag always gives a release. As a Superintendent told me when I was Chief on one of his vessels. "We don't go by that, it's only a guide."
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Wyatt
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by Wyatt »

I would agree as well, the whole Bridge as a team failed, but this still may have been because of how this Captain ran the vessel. Arrogance is a strong aphrodesiac for many a person in charge and that attitude can contribute to the saying, "My way or the Highway". Most junior mates are paid poorly and are only there to collect sea time so as to advance to the higher tickets, so to question the Captain is probably certain death in whatever position he is in, especially on this vessel with this guy at the wheel. We won't know what exactly happened until certain information is allowed to come out, but my chips are on the Captain and arrogance and being in control of any situation because he is the Captain of the Costa Concordia.......
Here is an interesting narrative using the AIS positions of the vessel in its last turn. http://gcaptain.com/gcaptains-john-konr ... deo/?37941

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JollyJack
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

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Very valid point about arrogance in senior captains, Wyatt. The worst airline disaster ever happened in the Canaries because of the arrogance of a KLM pilot, the most senior in the airline, who thought he could take off before given permission to do so by the Tower. His 747 collided with one on the runway, killing everyone aboard both aircraft, all because the junior pilot was afraid to stop the takeoff. We still have to deal with the God complex in our field.
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Wyatt
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by Wyatt »

Jollyjack, you certainly hit the nail on the head with delegation. I agree with everything you have said, so true, sadly......

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JK
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by JK »

I want to thank everyone for keeping the discussion professional with no tirades. We can read that stuff elsewhere.
Of course comments on delegation are always welcome.
On a plane and they are waving a finger at me to cease and desist.

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JollyJack
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by JollyJack »

Interesting video Wyatt, albeit with some inconsistancies. The narrator said she hit the rock initially and immediately blacked out. If this is true, where did he get the power to run the bow thruster once the vessel stopped? No stern thruster was mentioned, although the vessel moved sideways to her final position aground. What moved the stern? Wind and current? I don't think so, the strength of wind and current required to move a vessel that big, that far at that speed would be considerable and would have played a much bigger role in the disaster.

Looks like AIS has a purpose other than telling pirates where ships are :)
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jimmys
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by jimmys »

Podded propulsion no rudders either. 1000 kw needed for bow thruster that size no chance off emergency board. Ship size of supertanker. Mr Schettino said he dropped an anchor found not to be true.

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JollyJack
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by JollyJack »

The narrator also said that her thruster was ineffective over 3 knots (which is true of a tunnel thruster). If she had podded propulsion, why would she need tunnel thrusters? Pods aft and tunnel thruster forward?

From Wikipedia (it's working today)

Costa Concordia
Owner: Carnival Corporation & plc
Operator: Costa Cruises
Port of registry: Genoa, Italy
Route: Western Mediterranean
Call sign: IBHD
IMO number: 9320544
MMSI no.: 247158500

Concordia class cruise ship
Tonnage: 114,137 GT
Length: LOA 290.20 m (952 ft 1 in)
LBP 247.4 m (811 ft 8 in)
Beam: 35.50 m (116 ft 6 in)
Draught: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
Depth: 14.18 m (46 ft 6 in)
Decks: 17
Installed power: 6 × Wärtsilä diesel engines, 75,600 kilowatts (101,400 hp)
Propulsion: Diesel-electric; two shafts (2 × 21 MW)
Two fixed pitch propellers
Speed: service: 21.5 knots (39.8 km/h; 24.7 mph)
maximum: 23 knots (43 km/h; 26 mph)
Capacity: 3780 passengers
Crew: 1,100


Nothing about pods there Jimmy, fixed pitch props. The pods I have seen were all CPP, azimuth types.
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jimmys
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by jimmys »

How does she go astern with 21MW electric motors driving shafts. The later in this class are azimuth pods. I never really looked. Reversing these size of motors is a job. Will come back later. Short of time.
When I worked on AC\AC, the reversing of the large motors regenerated back to the diesel altenators. That was a 4260 plant with big motors and huge propellers and shafts-50tonnes. They had the ability to stop so fast that the inertia could slip the clutch.
I would assume that the present process would be the same.

I never wrote this Jimmys
Last edited by jimmys on Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wyatt
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by Wyatt »

Yes, I never read anything on the pod propulsion either, but thought it still might be pods. Initial hit onto rocks caused catastrophic flooding into propulsion motor room, which resulted in initial blackout due to all power used to drive vessel. EOW now faced with multitude of orders and scenarios. The wheelhouse calling and demanding what is wrong, engineers and ratings running in and screaming the motor room is flooding, fast. After assessment and Chief Engineer and Senior Engineer consultation, decide to divert all availaable power from main Gen's to Bow thrusters, from what I gather there are 2. This takes time with everything else that is going on. Electrical Officer involved and upon power being restored to ship the breaker to the thrusters are closed, wheel house immediatly starts full bow thruster to Starboard, this decision made because of wind and tides I would presume. This is my scenario but in reality the engineroom staff would have to have time to change their shorts some time in this tiimeframe.

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JollyJack
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by JollyJack »

The AIS track doesn't show an astern movement Jimmy, seems the rock brought her to a stop and the thrusters took her close inshore.
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jimmys
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by jimmys »

Yes I think two 360 deg azimuths aft, standard thrusters forward. I cant be sure. It seems by 9.48 pm the engine room is totally flooded and this is reported to Mr Schettino. He is acting under the instruction of Costa and no doubt Carnival Inc.
His lawyer is now talking, the great saying "when thieves fall out". We are not far away here, keep it up.

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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by Brad »

I'm looking for anything from an Engineers point of view, just to get a sense of the reaction and response from the engineroom and crew, or, any word on if they all survived. The news is focused of course on the Captain and passengers, but I, for one engineer, am more interested in the story from below the water line
The only account from an officer I've found so far:

Taken from
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ry-13.html

10 ANDREA CAROLLO: Third Officer – survivor

Asleep in his cabin at the back of Deck 3 when the Costa Concordia crashed, Andrea Carollo, leapt out of bed and dressed.

By the time he opened his door water was already rushing down the corridor, and when he went to his post in the engine room the engines were beginning to flood.

“Within 15 minutes, the engine room told the bridge that there was nothing to be done,” he said. “The situation was beyond repair.”

He then reported to his muster point, a lifeboat for 35 crew members. “Unlike the captain, we were there until the end. We did all we could to avoid catastrophe,” he said.

Alberto Fiorito, 28, another engineer, said: “We didn’t wait for the captain to give the order to abandon ship. We saw how serious the situation was, and we did it ourselves.”
------------------

You can only Imagine the reaction in the Control room when the ship side opened up and she started to lean and come to a rather bumpy halt...with the alarm printer spitting out page upon page, trying to keep up with the red lights and sirens all while your feet start getting wet!

Not to make light of the situation but, Holy funk. I look forward to hearing their side of the story, if it will ever be released.

Thanks to all for the great discussion on this and other topics on Martin's site.

jimmys
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Re: Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio

Post by jimmys »

If we look at the timeline there is one small chance for this ship

9.42 hit and commence flood in engine room
9.48 Engine room all flood Mr Schettino informed
10.05 Mr Schettino contacted Costa
10.58 abandon ship.
At 9.42 hrs on impact Mr Schettino knew there was hull damage he should have placed his controls to full astern and given a double ring full astern. A massive reduction in speed will control flooding and slow intake. At 15 knots a 1m square hole will pass about 420 tonnes/min and at 1knot approximately 30 tonnes/min. It would have given the engineer a direction immediately after his navigational error. At 15 knots it would take 10 seconds to cause the hull damage 220 ft long. Note these are estimates.
It is not Mr Schettino's fault that he made the navigational error it is a systemic fault that allowed him to make the error. IMO problem.
Can the engineer slow the ship in this timescale, in my time I have done it in less but not with this power plant. medium speed rubbish.

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