PSM and SPSM

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Aavenger
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PSM and SPSM

Post by Aavenger »

Hello
I just found this great board,very impressed.I am Chief Engineer on a Passenger Ferry on the east Coast.Recently I had to aquire these two certificates(PSM and SPSM) to validate my certificate.In my area no crew are permitted to sail on vessels without these endorsements...leading to futher difficulty in getting reliefs.Just curious how stringently other juridictions are enforceing these new requirements.Any info would be greatly appreciated.

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JollyJack
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Re: PSM and SPSM

Post by JollyJack »

These endorsements are required for crew on all passenger ferries in Canada. You don't need them to renew Certification, all you need is suitable qualifying service and a current Seafarer's Medical. See Section 107 of the Marine Personnel regulations. Because you are on a ferry, you are required to hold these endorsements and the shipowner is required to ensure that you do. If you sailed on a tanker, you'd need tanker endorsements. You don't need endorsements to renew your ticket, but you need appropriate qualifying service to renew endorsements, eg 3 months on a tanker within the previous 5 years to renew tanker endorsements.

I believe BC ferries insist on PSC, proficiency in survival craft, as well as STCW VI/2. It's the same thing, but I suppose some failed second mate who is now a Marine Superintendent, who has only a vague idea of what a ship looks like, made it mandatory. As long as BC Ferries pays for the additional unnecessary training and all expenses associated with it, PMTI should be happy.
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Wyatt
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Re: PSM and SPSM

Post by Wyatt »

You know JollyJack, you might have something there. I think all these ridiculous endorsements and certificates are due to some mate who failed and then got a job in Ottawa and is now forcing the issue on all of us Engineers!

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JollyJack
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Re: PSM and SPSM

Post by JollyJack »

Nothing to do with Ottawa Wyatt, the PSC endorsement is aimed at cooks, stewards, bottlewashers and entertainers who are not required to take STCW MED training. Those of us who are have STCW VI/2, with respect to survival craft and rescue boats, other than fast rescue boats, (the old B1) don't need the PSC Endorsement, coz it's the same as STCW VI/2 and we genearlly all have MAFA anyway.

It gives non-certificated crew, bottlewashers, entertainers, chancers, fan dancers and comic singers, some knowledge in operating survival craft in the event of an emergency, and the rudimentaries of First Aid. I can think of at least two incidents where the "hotel staff" and entertainers were left to organise passengers when the vessels in question sank. (Oceanus and Costa Concordia) The north Atlantic is not a nice place to be when something happens, so it's a good idea to have people trained in controlling panicking passengers, don't you think? Consider that the steaming crew, we happy few, will be fully involved in taking care of the emergency (or buggering off in the life boats, as was the case in both incidents above) someone will be needed to organize the evacuation. Safe manning in the Marine Personnel Regulations specify how many are needed where, and what they need for qualifications and training.

The problem arises when some clerk ashore misreads the Regulation and applies it across the board unneccesarily. To recap, Proficiency in Survival Craft (PSC) is the same as STCW VI/2 (MED B1), with First Aid added, (Certificated crew should have First Aid anyway) Passenger Safety Management is required on passenger ships and Specialized PSM is required on RORO vessels which carry passengers. (We cargo types called them "meat boats" in Union Castle, they load cargo on the hoof.)

It's all here in the Marine Personnel Regulations, sections 155 to 158 inclusive for PSC and section 229 for PSM. Section 207 gives guidance in "how many".

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... .html#h-51

It's worth remembering that new safety regulations only come in after people die in avoidable incidents, and are intended to prevent the same loss of life in a similar incident. If Titanic hadn't sunk with rich Americans aboard, there would be no SOLAS, or even IMO, and no safety regulations at all. Samuel Plimsol had a hard time getting load lines on coffin ships and the effort cost him his career, his position and ultimately his life. Don't you think for one minute that shipowners wouldn't revert to coffin ships in a New York minute if they could, safety costs money, and subtracts from profits.
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Wyatt
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Re: PSM and SPSM

Post by Wyatt »

Yes JollyJack, everything is done in the incident of a death, always has and always will. But there are so many regs now that I bet you if you went to one TC Office and requested a definition of a reg, then go to another TC office, both definitions would be different.
This reminds me of a funny incedent I was involved in many many years ago in Tuktoyaktuk. I was 2nd engineer on a drill ship with a mixed crew of Inuit and Southerners on board. On our TC boat and fire drill, we had a real screw up with the launch of the hand launch life boat. After we were able to get the boat secured again, the Inspector lined us all up and went down asking each of us what our jobs were. One was the gripes, one was the bow line, one was the brake, and when he got to the 2 Inuit girls standing silently by them selves, he asked what their job was, they looked at each other and one stated, "I make Salads". It was needed because it broke the ice and even the Inspector had to laugh. But it did show us as a crew that there was a definite lack of knowledge on important issues like life boats. This I hope would not happen today.

Wyatt
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Re: PSM and SPSM

Post by Wyatt »


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JK
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Re: PSM and SPSM

Post by JK »

No bet there Wyatt. We deal with TC in 3 different regions and interpretation of regs are free floating.. Costs us a Fortune. Just as well they are government, a commercial outfit would go bankrupt with that attitude.

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JollyJack
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Re: PSM and SPSM

Post by JollyJack »

Wyatt, your link brought up a Ship Safety Bulletin saying you don't need a Seafarer's Medical for PSM Endorsements. True, but if you are employed in any capacity as ship's crew and need a Certificate, the following applies:

From Marine Personel Regulations

Employment of Seafarers
269. (1) No person shall employ as a seafarer a person to whom this Division applies unless the person produces a medical certificate issued by the Minister under section 278 or a provisional medical certificate issued under section 275.

(2) The documents referred to in subsection (1) shall attest to the seafarer’s ability to

(a) perform the duties for which they are to be employed; and

(b) complete the voyages to be engaged on by the vessel on board which they are to be employed.

(3) No person to whom this Division applies shall accept employment as a seafarer unless they hold a document referred to in subsection (1) that applies to their situation and that attests to the seafarer possessing the abilities referred to in subsection (2).
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Aavenger
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Re: PSM and SPSM

Post by Aavenger »

Thanks all,just as I suspected...its a bummer for Chiefs trying to get reliefs..the average joe does not have these two spsm psm and are Not permitted to crew vessel..Even cooks and Stewards must have it in my region ...Atlantic CanadA

Aavenger
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Re: PSM and SPSM

Post by Aavenger »

I would guess in the next few years a whole lot more certificates will be required in the aftermath of the Costa Concordia which imo is fine if it makes things safer,,,,But why does the Marine Industry continue to be reactive instead of proactive? The biggest issue for me is trying to get reliefs.A Marine Engineer is not just a Marine Engineer anymore...we are becoming many specialized positions which are hard enough to fill but getting harder due to this.

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JollyJack
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Re: PSM and SPSM

Post by JollyJack »

The industry is reactive because shipowners will not spend money on safety gear unless they are forced to. They are forced to only when new Regulations come into effect and new Regulations are written only when people die in some avoidable incident. Kevin O'Leary, Canadian millionaire, has it exactly right when he says "It's all about the money, and only the money, all the time." Money does not care about people or conditions and those whose obsession is making more money care only about money.
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