summertime lull

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The Dieselduck
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Re: summertime lull

Post by The Dieselduck »

'long hall', 'short hall', thats pretty clever...
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Matthias
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Re: summertime lull

Post by Matthias »

I wouldn't necessarily call studying something that you haven't actually done dumb in order to pass an exam. I just finished studying for my 1st Class EKG and the question bank I was studying from included coal, a cathode ray oscilloscope for indicator diagrams, the distillation of do, hfo lo from crude, and a bulk CO2 system to just name a few unique questions which I have absolutely no experience with. I'm not sure if any of those questions are actually in the current exam bank being used by TCMS, but when you've got enough of those types of questions kicking around sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and learn something from a bit of research and studying rather than from experience.

As for weekly exams, that is not happening in Vancouver, Victoria, or in St. Johns. It would make the whole process a heck of a lot more accommodating if they were held weekly rather than waiting for the one time per month that they are being held.

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JollyJack
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Re: summertime lull

Post by JollyJack »

Sorry, but fractioning of crude oil is high school physics, at least it used to be. As for a CRT for indicator diagrammes, that's been in use since the 70s. Practically every ship has a fixed CO2 smothering system in machinery spaces, (and you'd better know all about it when you go for Orals!) Halon is being phased out as damaging to the atmosphere. You might want to look at AFFF, HiEx Foam and biofoam instalations, too. (and where they are used) Confined space entry, the biggest killer on ships, is worthwhile looking up, Part 2, Canada Labour Code, and MOSH Regulations. If you have no experience with any of these systems, you might want to reconsider writing 1EKG and get some experience first. 1st Class is big on safety, the Chief is responsible for the life and safety of his crew, the Examiner doesn't want to give a Certificate to somebody who will go out and kill a junior or ERR because he doesn't know the safety procedures.

Exam schedules are laid out in TP 2293, Examination of Seafarers, chapter 4, section 4.4, table VIII

Table VIII – Engineering Examinations
Day Morning Afternoon
First-class
Monday General engineering knowledge
Tuesday Engineering knowledge of motor ships Engineering knowledge of steamships
Wednesday Applied Mechanics Thermodynamics
Thursday Naval Architecture Electrotechnology

Second-class
Monday General engineering knowledge
Tuesday Engineering knowledge of motor ships Engineering knowledge of steamships
Wednesday Applied Mechanics Thermodynamics
Thursday Naval Architecture Electrotechnology
Friday Technical Drawing

Third-class
Monday Applied Mathematics General engineering knowledge
Tuesday Engineering knowledge of motor ships Engineering knowledge of steamships
Wednesday Thermodynamics
Thursday Electrotechnology

Fourth-class
Monday General engineering knowledge
Tuesday Engineering knowledge of motor ships Engineering knowledge of steamships

Watchkeeping Engineer, Motor-driven Fishing Vessel
Wednesday General engineering knowledge Engineering knowledge of MDFV’s

Small Vessel Machinery Operator
Wednesday Engineering knowledge of small vessels

Examinations for all other certificates or endorsements such as Engine-room rating and Type rating endorsements are held only on appointment with the examiner.


Canada Shipping Act 2001, and associated Regulations, came into force on 1st July, 2007. It was supposed to update and streamline the old Canada Shipping Act, in force since 1867. It was supposed to get rid of the "God Complex" in Examiners too, by reducing "wiggle room" in the interpretation of Regulations and TPs. Unfortunately, some people haven't twigged to either yet.
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Matthias
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Re: summertime lull

Post by Matthias »

CRO for indicator diagrams: On ships in the seventies, great. That was forty years ago. The CRO was replaced with an analogue to digital convertor and computers quite some time ago.

You'll notice I specified a bulk CO2 system. I've sailed on ships and am familiar with compressed CO2, high fog, foam, FM200, and halon. I suppose I should hold off on going for my ticket until I can find a ship with a bulk CO2 system? Or maybe I'll just study a bit and make sure I remember that nickel is added to the steel, the temperature is kept at -21C, there are two relief valves, one set at 24.5 bar and the other 27 bar, and I could go on and on (actually about 3 pages worth combined with a sketch).

As for fractioning of crude, I must have missed that in my chemistry classes in high school. Even if I didn't miss it, it's so long ago that there is no way I would remember enough to write a few pages about it on an exam.

I agree with your previous comment in concept, stick with what you know, but to suggest that if you don't know something or haven't personally had experience with it that you shouldn't bother educating yourself through a bit of studying isn't the most constructive advice. I've sailed with plenty of excellent Chief's who sailed on one type of vessel and got their tickets. If they would have taken your approach they would still have their 4ths.

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JK
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Re: summertime lull

Post by JK »

I knew there was something about marking times, but I couldn't find it on the site!

Brad
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Re: summertime lull

Post by Brad »

Wyatt, I believe Mr. Hall passed away in 2010. I was chatting with an Instructor at PMTC and he said that he had been having health issues for a few years and that about six months after he retired he passed away. I could only imagine sailing with him; we had quite a laugh during my 2nds orals.

I received my result, on Wednesday morning, that’s 2 weeks and a day waiting for a result. When I called to check on Friday last, I spoke with one of the examiners and received a ten minute back pedal, full with reasons, including the priority of oil spills.
In conversation with other exam centers on the east coast, the offer of "having your result before you fly back" is rather appealing, and shows not all exam centers work to the same page, some do have an interest in accommodating and encouraging those looking to go for their Certificates.

I passed the exam, answering three questions to which I studied, and three that I had "experience" with. I agree in principle with showing your experience, but when you have to answer six questions of nine, not all of those questions will relate to experience. I don't know anyone who has first hand "experience" in casting a propeller, as an onboard engineer. I had the bulk CO2 question and answered it, I've never sailed with a bulk system, but after the drawing and system specifics, the rest of the answer is "experience", to which I answered. I Forgot to write down the nickel, by the way, I remembered about an hour later while drinking my second pint.

On to Motor now, and seriously thinking of writing somewhere else. Anyone have Doxford time?

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JK
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Re: summertime lull

Post by JK »

The fellow in Halifax isn't too bad other then the fact you can't understand a word he says because of his thick Scots accent LOL

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The Dieselduck
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Re: summertime lull

Post by The Dieselduck »

That's a low blow there JK
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JK
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Re: summertime lull

Post by JK »

Nah, I tell him all the time I can't understand him LOL, being partially deaf doesn't help either!

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JollyJack
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Re: summertime lull

Post by JollyJack »

Too many years in too many engine rooms. In the '60s, we never had such luxuries as ear plugs, let alone ear defenders! Used to stuff cotton waste in our ears, but still finished the watch deaf for an hour or so afterward. Besides, you bloody colonials should learn to speak properly!

Yes, guilty, I'm the Examiner to which JK refers. (Latest guidelines yesterday from the Gov on "social media" says you should identify that you are what you are, but specifies that names, addresses etc should be witheld) This is not news to a few regular contributers here.

On the subject of Certification, I examine for STCW Certificates, valid world wide. Canada's CoCs are highly regarded internationally, have been for a long time, preceeding STCW 95. We are among the top 4 States whose standards were used for that Convention. When I issue a 1st Class Motor Certificate, I don't issue it for an aquatic snow plough or a floating tow truck, nor yet a maritime omnibus which chugs around between islands on the west coast or across the Cabot Strait. I issue it for International shipping, for the tanker which plies between the Persian Gulf and China, or the box boat which sails from the west coat of USA to Australia, the AHST working the North Sea or Caspian Sea, or the cargo vessel sailing from Europe to east Africa and India. Canada has 87 ships which go foreign (and has managed to make the "grey list" for PSC), 95% of vessels registered in Canada are under 150 GRT, 98% under 400 GRT. It would be so easy to Examine for competency on small vessels, but by doing so, Canada's world-wide status would be degraded and the considerable number of Canadian seafarers who work on internationally flagged vessels would be negatively affected. The standards which candidates for Certification in Canada must meet are specified in TP 2293, the Regulations which must be followed are the Marine Personnel Regulations. The Examinations are sent out by HQ in Ottawa on request by Examiners who haved been appointed as such. Every Examiner marking 1st Class Examinations holds a CoC at that level. The whole system is closely monitored by HQ and by Regional Chief Examiners, we are audited pretty closely. I wouldn't have it any other way.

If you come before me for an Examination, I want to know if you can meet the standards which have been set. If you can answer the question in one sentence, I will accept that, IF THE QUESTION IS ANSWERED! Don't try bullshit, I'm far better at that than you'll ever be :) I've had lots of experience. My advice, which I dispense freely to candidates for Examination, consists of 3 letters RTQ. READ THE QUESTION. Understand what is being asked, answer only that. If the question asks about crankshafts, don't talk about pistons, you won't score any points.......however, get it wrong, you'll lose marks.

Here are links to TP 2293 and to the Marine Personnel Regulations. Now you know as much as I do.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp ... u-2254.htm

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... -2007-115/
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JK
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Re: summertime lull

Post by JK »

LOL, Jollyjack is alike a trout coming from the bottom of a lake to get the dangled bait.
Top 4, eh!?

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JollyJack
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Re: summertime lull

Post by JollyJack »

Yup, Canada, UK, Australia and India, all based on the old Board of Trade Examinations for Engineers. 'course when I did my tickets, there wasn't such a thing as 3rd Class or 4th Class, you started off at "pre-sea grading" which determined the sea time required to write 2nd Class part B, Nav Arch, Leckyteck and EKs. Had to do it all over again when I came to Canada in '80, it wasn't until the the '92 - 95 window opened that CoCs were accepted here. After '95, Canada recognises no other Certificate as equivalent. Although the CSA 2001 says that "The Minister may accept" other country's Certificates, it hasn't happened yet.
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Wyatt
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Re: summertime lull

Post by Wyatt »

It sure is nice to know we are in the top 4. But seriuosly, I have sailed with Chiefs who had a 1st Class Combined, and the things I witnessed were unbelievable. I should be clear here, these engineers were from other country's before landing in Canada, but how they were able to hold, or obtain a ticket of that level was beyond me. In my 35 years at sea, I can tell you many many stories of unbelievable lunacy being performed by these immigrant Chief Engineers who ALL held 1st class Certificates. I will never profess to be the engineer of the year, but not every engineer writing for thier 1st class are going to be running to get on the first deep sea frieghter, I would say the majority would probably stay with the company they are presently working for, be it in coastal trade, inland waters or Arctic voyages. Sometimes getting experience in some of these systems mentioned is practically impossible without resigning from the employer whom you are working for and starting with another employer. As I am coming to the end of my career, probably have another 10 years left, have given up on any idea at attempting to obtain the 1st Class, this mainly due to the TC Inspector's I have had to deal with. When I wrote my 2nd's in Montreal, once the examiner discovered I was a CGC Grad, everything went down hill. He grilled me for 6 hours in orals asking question after question about steam, and I was writing motor!!! That is all water under the bridge, because somehow I did pass, but was so deflated I simply went home and had a beer and watched TV. I understand that it is the examiners perogative on how to mark exams, and it must be extremely frustrating especially when the answers are close, but perhaps not close enough. Good luck to you Brad!

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JK
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Re: summertime lull

Post by JK »

What a prick, Wyatt...6 hours of orals. Chripes.
I know of another fellow who sailed over 30 years FG. He wrote his 1st while he was working inshore and the examiner said he had no experience because of the company he was with, then proceeded to fail him. Given the questions he was asked, I know I would have failed too!
I also know of someone who had a question on feathering paddlewheel blades on their exam LOL. There is 1 paddleboat in Canada that I am aware of. To be fair, this was many years ago....but still!

The problem with TC is that some, and only some, surveyors/examiners seem to hold a grudge against previous employers or institutions and hold them to levels over and above. Dealing with the different offices can be nightmarish.

Brad
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Re: summertime lull

Post by Brad »

Thanks Wyatt,

6 hrs is nuts. Last year a fellow here in St. John's was sitting his 1st class orals, after the third hour he started to get up and leave. He said "I don't know what you want to know, but it's clear your not going to hear it",The examiner passed him. He walked out more angry then happy.
Oh, the horror stories.
I agree with, and am proud of, the high standard of Canadian certificates. I'm currently on a UK flagged ship and I was able to get a UK CEC by filling out a few forms, the same process as the Liberian and Vanuatu CEC's. I boast to the lads and take a bit of pride in the fact that they would have to sit exams to get a Canadian licence, sometimes leading to a heated debate! I haven't sailed on a Canadian flagged ship since my cadetship it's been international ever since.
Funny you mention a paddlewheeler JK, I took a few weeks work on the Edmonton Queen (Dinner/Booze cruise paddlewheeler on the River) in my final year of cadetship, a 4th class cert was all they needed (Don't know how). I thought it was a prank when the recruiter called and asked if I could join a ship in Edmonton!

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