Another Carnival Triumph

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JK
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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby JK » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:07 am

3 ships
don't forget the Costa Allegra

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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby al2207 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:41 am

Thanks for info ; do you remember if there were a manual way to synchronize generator to the bus without the computer ?
within Sam specification breaker had 50 KA int capacity ip it sound quite low for the generator capacity up to 6 depending of configuration )

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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby The Dieselduck » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:54 am

Just found this picture from the USCG's website showing part of the burnt engine room of the Carnival Triumph. You can clearly see that the engine is a Sulzer ZAV40S series engine. This must not be the source / seat of the fire, since the area doesn't give indication of a particularly intense fire had occurred there. Some damage for sure though.

Triumph ER fire.jpg
Coast Guard investigators from the Coast Guard Marine Safety Center and the Investigations Center of Expertise examine the cruise ship Carnival Triumph's engine room, Feb. 14, 2013, to determine the cause of a fire that broke out Feb. 10 and stranded the ship with its passengers for days in the Gulf of Mexico. The results of the joint international investigation may take months, but could possibly help prevent the same type of incident from happening in the future. (U.S. Coast Guard photo by Lt. Jerry Federer)


From Wikipedia
Carnival Triumph
Class & type: Destiny/Triumph-class cruise ship
Tonnage: 101,509 GT
10,984 DWT
Length: 893 ft 4 in (272.3 m)
Beam: 116 ft 6 in (35.5 m)
Draft: 27 ft 3 in (8.3 m)
Decks: 13 decks
Installed power: 2 × Wärtsilä-Sulzer 12ZAV40S
4 × Wärtsilä-Sulzer 16ZAV40S
Propulsion: Diesel-electric; two shafts (2 × 17.6 MW)
Two controllable pitch propellers
Six maneuvering thrusters
Speed: 22.5 knots (41.7 km/h; 25.9 mph) (max)
Capacity: 3,143 passengers
Crew: 1,100

Sulzer ZA40S.jpg
SULZER ZA40S V16


http://www.sulzer-z40.com/
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Big Pete
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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby Big Pete » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:59 am

with regards to al2207 's question, I have no personal experience of these modern passenger liners, but once any ship has blacked out it is impossible to synchronise the generators.
Think about it, in a Blackout, the Bus Bar Frequency and Voltage are zero, any running generator has a voltage and frequency, so it is impossible to match the voltage, frequency and phase angle for normal synchronisation.
You have to run up a generator and manually put the breaker in, this may require switching off the synchronising devices.
If this can not be done by electric push buttons on the outside of the switchboard, it can usually be done by pressing a button on the breaker itself, if this wont go in you may have to use the manual lever to charge up the operating spring first.
On a large system like this it may be neccessary to go round making sure all the breakers to heavy consumers are out before trying to put the first gen set on load otherwise it may trip out on overload as soon as it goes on the board.

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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby JK » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:01 am

you know, to manually synchronize that plant with that power rating would scare the crap out of me and I have done it before

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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby al2207 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:29 am

The procedure you are mentioning is correct in case of blackout ship ; but what i was thinking is: when you have 3 or 4 generator already running is there a way to synchronize without computer . Each time there is fire in engine room they were trying to add some generator
on Splendor they were trying to add 1 more to the 5 already running
on Triumph they had problem with propulsion speed maybe they had not generator power on line

in these cases if there is a malfunction with computer automated synchro system and they tried manually to synchronize and failed then the fireworks start .
when i was building main switchboard for tugs or ferry we had to provide cam switches to disconnect all computer related contact and have a synchroscope , reverse power relay, synchrocheck relay to be able to connect with a closing trip the breaker to the bus without problem . Was requested by Coast guard at time .

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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby al2207 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:50 am

Since we do not have any report about cruise ship fire in switchboard ;I had found a fire in 2002 with Coast guard report , conclusions are interesting.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/ts ... u-1260.htm

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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby jimmys » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:28 am

If a ship is blacked out it is unlikely any engine will run in the engine room. The emergency board is normally run from the main board thro the interconnector which is automatically broken at each end by breakers one on emergency board and one on main board on blackout. If both these breakers are not out the emergency generator will not close on the emergency board. Years ago an emergency generator closed on a faulty interconnector and burned out. Everything is disconnected at the main board while the bars are checked by megger. If good we can power up the main bars from emergency board. We put on what we need for a generator, air, cooling, control. We should have the computer the UPS powers it. We run it up and syncronise to live bars and away we go.
The emergency generator is not required to run vacuum toilets the vacuum pumps are large.
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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby JK » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:06 pm

On the AC/AC ship I was on many years ago, you could flash the plant manually on the either emergency or shore power.
You manually opened every non-essential and essential breaker you could on the hotel-600v bus.
The emergency tie was closed between the emergency bus to the hotel bus. One ME LO pump was started manually at the breaker panel and the engine started locally.
It was manually sychronized to the board and the emergency tie tripped. When it was on load, you had to hussle and start the rest of the essential engine and central cooling pumps pumps then start loading it up. Once you had the first one going, it was a normal start up and you could energize the main propulsion bus and the propulsion transformers.
All you had to do was read and understand the propulsion plant instructions.

Pretty straight-forward enough for me to wonder why the heck they couldn't start that ship. We had a ship dead in the water years ago in a horrible storm. Everyone thought it was the end. The old 2nd pulled out every piece of wire he could find and had them strung from the emergency generator board to the air compressor start panel and wired them so he could pump the main air bottles up and start a generator. They had taken a bad wave and flooded out a bunch of essentials. The point is the engineer (who really liked his scotch and beer, I mean really liked) had the knowledge and experience to make 'er work.

I have to wonder how much of this issue was ignorance of the plant and if there ever will be a clear answer. Look at the last fire Carnival had, the fire panel was mislabelled and the ships officers hadn't figured it out in the years it had been in service.

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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby JollyJack » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:34 pm

I seem to remember that the "Black Start" or "First Start" is scheduled in the 5 year survey cycle.
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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby jimmys » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:19 am

This ship has two switchboards, they can be separated by breaker and run separately. Each individual switchboard is in two sections and lengths of bus bar can be removed to isolate these sections. This gives you four separate switchboards.
Unless there is total destruction of the switchboards you should get something without emergency cabling. There is six generators. We have surely not lost all six plus switchboards.
I think it is cheapness in construction combined with poor training.

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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby al2207 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:17 am

you know there are 3 assignment that do not require certification aboard cruise ship
electrical personnel
doctor
nurse
i am quite sure the electrician that make the switchboard explode will not approach anything electrical for some time

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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby Big Pete » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:24 pm

Many years ago I was on standby on a ship with all 3 D/As running to provide power for the electric bowthruster. Onr D/A tripped off and I immediatly put it back in because we were manoevring, it came straight out again, so I ran round to the geny flat and found the Motorman washing down the Alternators with a fresh water hose!.
The whole Alternator was sent ashore for repair but it was completely burnt out and there were no recognisable parts inside.

As Jimmys says all ship have a "First Start Arrangement" that should make it possible to start everything up after a total blackout.

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Re: Another Carnival Triumph

Postby JK » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:10 am

Thank you JimmyS and Big Pete for your comments. Very clarifying. It makes me want to run right out and buy a cruise ship ticket.
Not very much. Who wants to go on vacation with 4000 of your closest friends?!

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Carnival cruise ship Triumph secured after breaking loose

Postby The Dieselduck » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:16 pm

Carnival cruise ship Triumph secured after breaking loose; worker missing

The Associated Press
April 3, 2013 5:13PM EDT

MOBILE, Ala. -- The crippled cruise ship whose sewage-filled breakdown in the Gulf of Mexico subjected thousands to horrendous conditions tore loose Wednesday from the dock where it's being repaired, lumbered downriver and crunched into a cargo ship.

Wind gusts near hurricane strength shoved the 900-foot Carnival Triumph free from its mooring in downtown Mobile, Ala., where the ship was brought in a five-day ordeal that began when an engine fire stranded it off of Mexico in February. Hours later, four tug boats used several mooring lines to secure the ship to the cruise terminal.

A 20-foot gash about 2 to 3 feet wide was visible about halfway up the hull from the water and it wrapped partway around the stern. Underneath the gashed area, two levels of railing were dangling and broken. Electric cables that had been plugged in on shore were dangling from the port -- or left -- side of the ship. Carnival said damage, though, was limited.

The violent weather Wednesday also blew a nearby guard shack into the water. One shipyard worker was rescued and crews were searching for another, a U.S. Coast Guard spokesman said, but the cruise ship's mishap was unrelated.

Some crew members and workers had been staying on the ship while it was being repaired and people could be seen looking out the windows and on the deck of the ship Wednesday. Carnival said all 800 of its crew members and contractors who were working aboard were safe.

An engine fire disabled the Triumph on Feb. 10 and thousands of passengers were disabled for days. Passengers say they endured terrible conditions on board, including food shortages, raw sewage running in corridors and tent cities for sleeping on deck.

Tugs slowly towed the ship into port in Mobile, Ala., where it has remained under repair.

After the ship escaped, it rested against a cargo vessel. It drifted for a couple of hours before being secured as of 5 p.m., and moved to the Mobile Cruise Terminal, Carnival spokesman Vance Gulliksen said.

Coast Guard officials said they saw no sign late Wednesday of the missing BAE Systems employee who was knocked into the water with a co-worker when near hurricane-strength winds blew their guard shack over. The other man was rescued.

Coast Guard Petty Officer 2nd Class Bill Colclough said the missing man worked for BAE Systems that runs the shipyard. Authorities are unsure of how deep the water is where the men fell in, but the company's website mentions its ship-repairing operation is adjacent to a 42-foot deep ship channel.


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