Rumored Certification Changes?

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F1emming
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Rumored Certification Changes?

Postby F1emming » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:19 pm

Hello everyone!

As a quick introduction, My name's Tim, and I've been using the site for a while now while I work my way through my 4th Class Training Record Book. The publications and information found on this site is a great help! and I would like to thank all the contributors and volunteers that help make this site a great resource for people attempting to become a marine engineer the hard way!

I've come across several variants of the same rumor in the last little while which has left me with a pretty heavy question.

The Rumor:

Apparently some people have gotten wind of a Certification change presumably being brought in by Transport Canada to "Hinder" or outright prevent the notion of "Working your way up" to become a Marine Engineer in Canada; without official study in a recognized Marine Engineering Program offered by a University or College.

Basically putting an end to hopping on board a ship as an Oiler/Motorman and working your way up.

Obviously given my current scenario this kind of worrys me. I've always been a fan of Apprenticeships and the idea of Hands on learning, which is why I've started the process of working towards my 4th Class engineer certificate outside of a Training Institution.

Question:

I guess my question is kind of broad. Has anyone else heard of such a change coming? Or has anything like this been presented in the past?

I can see pros and cons for both sides, don't get me wrong, I'm just curious seeing as I'm right in the middle of such an event, and wouldn't want to lose any invested time, or have a limit as to how far I can go in this whole learning experience.


Thanks everyone!

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JK
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Re: Rumored Certification Changes?

Postby JK » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:39 pm

Welcome to the forum!
Good question and one I don't have an answer to, though I do know there are changes happening. Until jolly jack get her with an answer, you can do a search on his name and see if he has posted anything. Sorry I can't give you more help.

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JollyJack
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Re: Rumored Certification Changes?

Postby JollyJack » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:13 pm

Marine Personnel Regulations are being overhauled to conform to the STCW Manila Amendments, 2010.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/marine ... nglish.pdf

All STCW signatory flag states must conform by mid-2014. The proposed Regulations will be posted in the Canada Gazette part 1 for public consultation, probably later this year.

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/gazette/home-accueil-eng.php

Any amendments to the MPRs will be added and the final form should go to Gazette 2 early next year. The Regulations come into force when the time in Gazette 2 expires, 90 days, I think.

STCW III/1, watchkeeping engineer, present 4M/S and 3M/S,
STCW III/2, present 1M/S and 2 M/S,
STCW III/3 present 3MN/SN,
STCW III/4, ERR

To answer your question, look up the Manila Amendments. The text is here:

http://www.imo.org/OurWork/HumanElement ... nts/33.pdf
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F1emming
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Re: Rumored Certification Changes?

Postby F1emming » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:26 pm

Hmm.

I cant seem to find the annex these two articles are speaking of.

.4 have completed approved education and training and meet the standard of competence specified in section A-III/1 of the STCW Code; and

.5 meet the standard of competence specified in section A-VI/1, paragraph 2, section A-VI/2, paragraphs 1 to 4, section A-VI/3, paragraphs 1 to 4 and section A-VI/4, paragraphs 1 to 3 of the STCW Code

I see lots of changes with the Personnel Regulations and in other areas, but correct me if I'm wrong, the certification requirements don't seem to have changed much. I just need to find out what they're referring to by "Approved Education & Training", because that could be the hit that does me in right there.


Government documents are always so convoluted. :p

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JK
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Re: Rumored Certification Changes?

Postby JK » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:18 pm

The CSA is A PiTA. I spent an hour this morning trying to figure out wording .and sub-sections

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JollyJack
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Re: Rumored Certification Changes?

Postby JollyJack » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:43 pm

"Approved Education & Training" can be seen here:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/mp ... u-1757.htm

and the full list of approved courses and course providers are here:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/bil/tp ... 10655b.pdf

I should point out that the navy school are no longer approved course providers, as of Feb 2010
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F1emming
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Re: Rumored Certification Changes?

Postby F1emming » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:48 am

From what I understand the "Approved Training & Certifications" they're speaking of are our MED's and Propulsion Simulator courses?

I see nothing about Full-time educational programs at a university.

Although at the same time, it will be hard to find out the requirements for sure until Marine Safety updates their information. They will still be the ones conducting the examinations. As well as providing the prerequisites for challenging engineering exams.

*edit*

After reading through the Amendments and new regulations again, I feel pretty confident saying the old "Long road" (on the job training) approach to becoming an Engineer is still viable. I Haven't seen any changes or amendments to hours required in a certified training institution, nor have I seen any changes in the requirements for applicants of the 4th Class engineer certification.

Again, it has taken some time to review all these revisions, and some of it is still a little grey. Its hard to draw a clear cut answer from these documents. Even now, before the changes have occurred, if you look at the Transport Canada documents regarding requirements for applications for the 4th class engineering certificate, and compare them to the outline at the local Marine Safety branch, its night and day! TC leaves you with questions, hunting for additional information and annexes. While MS gives you the clear list of "This is what you need" with no bull. Granted this may be because they deal with the general public on a regular basis, and may require some things to be "dumbed down" from time to time. I just think when dealing with requirements and changes like these, it would be best to have as little grey as possible.

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JollyJack
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Re: Rumored Certification Changes?

Postby JollyJack » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:53 pm

All will be revealed when the new Marine Personnel Regulations go to the Canada Gazette part I for public consultation later this year. They will appear here:

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/consult/consult-eng.html#i1

That's the next step in the overhaul process.
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