Engine Room Fire

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JollyJack
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Re: Engine Room Fire

Postby JollyJack » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:33 pm

That's minimum safe manning for you, which sets a safe level of manning for sailing at sea. It doesn't take into account maintenance or operation of cargo etc.
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Big Pete
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Re: Engine Room Fire

Postby Big Pete » Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:10 am

Hi JJ,

I have been telling Captains and Supers that safe minimum manning is enough for a " Run Job" and makes no allowance for Man Power for Cargo Ops and Maintenance for 30 years, but people are expensive so nobody wants to hear.

It is like the "Hours of Rest", nobody working 6 on 6 off watches can possibly comply but PSC, Flag State and Class all studiously ignore the problem.
The absolute maximum time anyone can spend at their place of work, without at least a one hour Meal Break somewhere else is 6 Hours. The absolute minimum Rest is one 6 hour continuous period, plus a shorter period. SOLAS requires both the new and old watch keepers to have a Handover period of 15 minutes.
Therefore each "6" hour watch actually lasts 6 1/4 Hours and the rest periods are only 5 3/4 hours, and that is before Drills, Call Outs and Emergencies.
One MCA Surveyor that came on board my ship admitted that nobody in his Office understood how it was possible for a ship working 6 and 6 to comply with both SOLAS and the Hours of Work Regs. The thing that really concerned him was that we had electronic pay slips so that the Company couldn't pay us less than the minimum wage!!!
Apparently if the Company has a web site to tell you what you have been paid that MUST be true whereas we have all heard of dubious shipowners who run 2 sets of paperwork one to show that they pay ITF rates and another showing the real (much lower) pay that the crew get. If the ship owner will lie on paper why wouldn't he lie Electronically, more mind boggling stupidity from IMO. If I thought my employer was dodgy I would go on line and log in to MY Bank to check how much money had gone into my Account, it is not Rocket Science. If you have a dodgy employer you don't believe what they tell you on paper, on a Web site or on an email, they are dodgy ie crooks and they will lie in all media just as happily and just as convincingly.

BP
It is always better to ask a stupid question than to do a stupid thing.

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JK
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Re: Engine Room Fire

Postby JK » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:29 am

I've been telling management for years, they have ships designed and built for double the crew working a 4/8 watch.
Simple things like craning parts into and through spaces with one person on a remote is impossible, you need 4 guys to manage multiple chain falls,etc. To get 4 guys you need the other watch. If we ran into problems it was a 18 hour day, 5 hours in the bunk and up and attem. Now the person is off watch with the hours of rest rules, so what is the ship suppose to do? Drift?

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D Winsor
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Re: Engine Room Fire

Postby D Winsor » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:16 am

I agree with what has been said about "Minimum Manning" Regulations. It seems that everyone has conveniently forgotten the sole purpose of these regulations, that is to state the Minimum crew required to Deliver a vessel from one port to another NOT work or maintain the vessel

As BP said you know Ship Owners like the system because it saves them money and Port States aren't going to say anything, unless the vessel is engaged a local or restricted trade, because they are dependent on the revenues from vessel registries. Well so much for ISM and other regulations designed to prevent this sort of foolishness
Troubleshooting 101 "Don't over think it - K.I.S.S. it"

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JK
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Re: Engine Room Fire

Postby JK » Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:54 pm

It's a perfect situation, everyone off the hook except for Captain and Chief.
I like that the Koreans went after everyone after the ferry accident that killed all the school kids. Sad thing is, if there were no kids involved would it have been so thorough

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JollyJack
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Re: Engine Room Fire

Postby JollyJack » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:24 pm

Maximum hours of work in ILO is 16, in Canaian MPR, part 3, it's 18 out of 24. I'm quite well aware of "Official" hours of work and actual hours of work. The official hours are never more than 12 a a day.

In a PSC inspection, I asked for the hours paid.
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Big Pete
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Re: Engine Room Fire

Postby Big Pete » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:13 am

There are lots of different makes of software out there to enable you to work out if you are complying with the Hours of rest.
On a UK flagged ship you have to comply with the UK hours of rest requirements, plus STCW.
UK Regs say that no one can stay at their place of work longer than 6 hours without a meal break lasting at least one hour and that there should be a minimum of one 6 hour uninterrupted rest period in every 24 hours. So you have to calculate it all from Midnight to Midnight, then one minute past Midnight to one minute past midnight, 2 minutes past midnight ... you get the picture, which is why it has to be done on a computer to check if you are complying or not. It is far too laborious to do manually. You are also allowed to average some of the rest hours over a period.
However many third World Crew, that I have sailed with can't understand this and insist that the computer is wrong!!! They had 6 hours rest, say from Midnight to 06:00 one day and 6 hours rest from 18:00 to 0000 the next day and can't see that that is illegal.
It is permitted to exceed the hours of rest in an Emergency, but that was intended to cover Fire Fighting or rescuing survivors from another ship etc, but Superintendents like to think it covers operational situations, like working all day, arriving in Port, going from Stand By arrival straight into Bunkering mode, the hose often being coupled before FWE is given, spending up to 12 hours bunkering and then having the Captain screaming for Engines and standby while the fuel is still coming in, and once you get FAOP you have to have BOT sports to comply with Regs. Then try to get a few sleep before you reach the oil rigs and go on 6 on 6 off watches.... writing this reminds of how glad I am to be out of it.

BP
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D Winsor
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Re: Engine Room Fire

Postby D Winsor » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:55 am

JollyJack wrote:Maximum hours of work in ILO is 16, in Canaian MPR, part 3, it's 18 out of 24. I'm quite well aware of "Official" hours of work and actual hours of work. The official hours are never more than 12 a a day.

In a PSC inspection, I asked for the hours paid.


Here are the rules I was told to follow by one G/L Employer 16 hours worked in 18 with 6 hours "Uninterrupted" Rest in a given 24 hour period broken down like this 16 hours worked, 3 1/2 Hour meal breaks and 1/2 hour for cleanup before rest period

On the self unloading bulk carriers this rule regularly comes into play with the crew required to work cargo operations either loading or unloading the vessel and the clock started when cargo operations start. Usually prior to arrival at a loading or unloading port outside normal Day working hours and the crew can't get the mandated 6 hours "uninterrupted" rest before cargo operations the crew are "Knocked off" so to rest up. This procedure worked fine when everything worked as it should but things go off the rails especially when the shore facility can't give or receive the cargo at the rate promised or expected or there is a shore side breakdown and a promised 1/2 hour repair turns into a 5 or 6 hour repair and the crew are stuck in limbo.
This also causes problems when if during a PSC inspection hours paid is used to determine hours of rest because in some collective agreements if the crew are "Knocked Off" due to a shutdown and are called back out within 4 hours they are paid right through. In order to get around this problem the companies use what is know as an "Hours of Rest" log where each crew member, including the Captain & Chief, must blank out, by their own hand (absolutely not computer generated), blocks on a grid, the hours they work and post the log sheet on their cabin door. The log sheets are retained by the crew member and are signed off by the Captain and or Chief once or twice a month usually around the time electronic payroll records are submitted to the office. The accuracy of these records really come into play in the event of an accident as it did in one particular incident where a crew member was fatality injured after being called out during what should have been a mandatory "Rest period".
Troubleshooting 101 "Don't over think it - K.I.S.S. it"

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Big Pete
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Re: Engine Room Fire

Postby Big Pete » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:46 am

Always remember, there are two sets of rules, one covering " hours of work" and one covering " hours of rest".
Years ago I was sailing on Car Carriers where the Captain stood the 8 to 12 watch in the Morning at Sea and the Chief Mate and Second Mate were on Duty all the rest of the time. Sea Watches or Cargo Watches.
This was back when hours of rest first had to be recorded. The Company and Deck Officers all had a big shock, it was the Engineers that weren't getting enough rest not the Mates.
The two Engineers were on Day work, plus Daily stand byes, (4 Ports a week) plus evening rounds when on duty and answering alarms, as well as Bunkering, usually in the middle of the night, we rarely exceeded the hours of work, but frequently failed to get 6 hours rest, finished day work at 5 pm, rounds at 10/ 11 pm, start day work at 8 am so you have to get a straight 6 hours rest in between evening rounds and 8 am. Any ER alarms or stand byes between 2 am and 5 am and you can't get your continuous 6 hours.
I always logged 15 minutes work as a minimum for each ER alarm I responded to, on most ships you will look at the hours of rest and see that the Engineers never have any alarms or do evening rounds! They only ever work 8 to 12 and 1 to 5!!

BP
It is always better to ask a stupid question than to do a stupid thing.


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