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A look at how the UK implemented STCW 2010

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:16 am
by Shame_on_TC_2017
With all the chaos at the Federal government, complete mismanagement, and stupidity at Transport Canada in Ottawa regarding the marine personnel regulations and the SSB fiasco we should look at a real maritime country with a respected licensing system - The UK. They were on time and have their regulations regarding marine engineer licensing implemented in 2015 - ON TIME. The document is called MSN 1857 and was published on June 11, 2015. ... -operators
I will look at the parallel situation for myself - a second class engineer who graduated from a cadet program and is trying to upgrade to a Chief engineer STCW. For background I was on leave from sea studying to write the part A exams when I was told by Ottawa - Bruno Duguay - that it wasn't necessary anymore. After winding down the studying and situation I had made for myself to upgrade I went back to sea. 9 months later it was canceled. I am making plans to take leave again to study - now we hear rumors that TC is combining second and chiefs to a management license to be inline with STCW compliant. Back and fourth and back and fourth as the examiners and TC go into seizures about complying with the IMO and STCW.

Let me ask Ottawa, how many times do you expect that I readjust my life to upgrade? There was a lot of people affected by the SSB Fiasco.

Lets look at what the UK is doing. - by the way it sounds a lot like the old SSB that got canceled.
You need 36 months of sea time as a EEOW.
You hold a second class license
Complete the safety courses
Complete an approved training program (cadet program)
Have a medical certificate.
Complete management level exams in motor and general engineering *

Note the header 8 and 9 on item (e)
From 2017 second and chief engineer knowledge exams will be COMBINED to one management level exam.
If you complete these exams you don't need to take a further exam for chief engineer stcw.

You must however do an oral exam for STCW III/2 chief engineer. Does this mean that a second class license holder only has to do a oral exam for chiefs?

As I understand this is similar to the old SSB, Bruno Duguay who was in charge of that SSB was basically doing the same thing as the UK. However it was in the form of a SSB and not passed into law. That is because transport Canada never got started until 2017. A shame those who are responsible get to hide in relative anonymity behind the dark glass on Sparks street. They fucked this up real bad.

I don't see what the problem is with following the UK and the rest of the world on this one. I guess all the port state harbour inspectors got their duties cut so bad that all they have left is to subjectively and with wildly inconsistent standards mark exams that people memorise answers off this very site. A far from good system and far far away from anything to be proud of.

If you look at marinedieseluk study books the exam questions in the UK are completely relevant and much better than Canadas joke of exam questions. Why cant they just stop fucking around and get on with it like the rest of the developed world. People getting failed for describing HFO and LNG fueled engines instead of MDO and HFO when asked about dual fuel in 2018...…..

Let the rest of us get on with our exams under a clear system that is passed into law and is consistent with the STCW.

Re: A look at how the UK implemented STCW 2010

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:10 pm
by The Dieselduck
Its not just the UK's system that like that. Nearly every jurisdiction whose STCW regs I come across are more or less the same way. I am in the process of updating the main website, and I have several of these regulation guides going up. The UK's is pretty typical, but somewhat harder to read than say Hong Kong's, whose been right out of the gate and had their STCW2010 regs up by 2012 I believe.

Its the same system in other "backwater countries" like: Australia, Norway, Sweden, France, etc etc, etc. All I want, like you - if the federal government will not protect us from international peers working tax free in Canada, then we should have an even playing field with my international peers. I think an even playing field for CoC is damn good place to start, and long overdue. Even playing field on income taxes is also a huge priority.

Re: A look at how the UK implemented STCW 2010

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:39 am
by Revolver
The Dieselduck wrote: Even playing field on income taxes is also a huge priority.

Re: A look at how the UK implemented STCW 2010

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:44 am
by Shame_on_TC_2017
Can you imagine, Canadian licenses could be no longer STCW compliant. It’s like not having refresher training and expecting to sign on internationally. Then anyone working internationally could have their company reject them because they don’t have an internationally accepted license? Port state inspections in 2020 finds ship sailing with non stcw compliant engineer officers... from Canada.

I guess that’s what Transport Canada wants?

Many countries discharge books are all standard and include a place for receiving shore leave pass. If you have a Canadian discharge book - one that never expires you can’t go ashore in certain countries because our discharge book is not accepted. Imagine...

Transport Canada is like lead sinking to the bottom of the sea and dragging down all of us hard working engineers at sea. They are the ones who can’t handle it anymore and have quit the life at sea to sit at a desk.

Re: A look at how the UK implemented STCW 2010

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:06 pm
by camshaft
This does not at all sound like the TC SSB which was thankfully cancelled before it could do any more damage. SSB-05-2017 was a screw-up for sure, but imagine if it had been allowed to carry on for years to affect many more than it did. Who would seriously think they could get and keep a First Class Engineer certificate without writing any engineering exams? A previous poster mentioned that this may have come about from someone trying to mold the foreign system they went through with TC and with STCW 2010 Manila - and this sounds plausible. Actually it's about the only reasonable explanation I've heard for this fiasco.
But to give TC credit, IMHO this UK system looks much like the system TC was trying to transition to for a long time - that is TC gets out of examinations leaving it to the educational institutions. This makes sense to me, although don't rule out TC and the Canadian educational institutions screwing that up. If you want to see "wildly inconsistent standards" look inside the Canadian education institutions, they range from pathetic to excellent (probably the same with foreign also, including the UK).
Some have disparaged the old system of "memorizing answers to obsolete questions." Well there are two ways to pass almost any exam in history, memorize the answers or learn how to solve the problem from basics, and you guess which one is preferable. I have worked with/for engineers from all over and many of the clueless ones (majority of this subset maybe) graduated from some kind of academy or cadet programme. I've been through the Canadian education system and have seen people pass who really don't know the subject material and I've worked with engineers who've been through foreign engineering programmes whom I'm almost certain were just handed their ticket for attendance.
Nothing is perfect, but I see big advantages with proper engineering education that teaches the fundamentals of Marine Engineering. Once one understands the fundamentals of the academic subjects one can figure out almost anything.

Re: A look at how the UK implemented STCW 2010

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:37 pm
by PerpetualQuickFixes
Canada has become a clown country in so many ways.
Unable to provide basic regulatory, civil services and only able to virtue signal about Trump or remove visa requirements for sketchy countries.

Re: A look at how the UK implemented STCW 2010

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:31 pm
by camshaft
My what an intelligent response. I'm reluctant to encourage this but maybe Mr. Negativity could tell us WTH his comment has to do with this thread.

Re: A look at how the UK implemented STCW 2010

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:58 pm
by PerpetualQuickFixes
camshaft wrote:My what an intelligent response. I'm reluctant to encourage this but maybe Mr. Negativity could tell us WTH his comment has to do with this thread.
TC's inability to implement STCW 2010

Re: A look at how the UK implemented STCW 2010

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:50 am
by Shame_on_TC_2017
New Zealand and Australia have also done away with 1st class general and motor engineering knowledge exams. After you pass the general and motor engineering knowledge exams at the "management level" (no more 1st class gen/motor or 2nd class gen/motor) there is only oral exams left.

TC's mistake with the original SSB was they did not require an oral exam. Also it was not in the form of a law which the examiners had to respect.

My friend who is involved with the cruise lines has told me that his Croatian counterparts also do not write any exams after passing the general and motor knowledge exams at the management level (those exams are taken when you meet the seatime requirements for second class) and they are not repeated for Chief engineer STCW.

What everyone in the modern STCW world (the ones who have accepted the world is not flat, and that a domestic licensing scheme is not STCW compliant) must do for licensing:

1)Everyone must go to a training program 2-3 years to get the training for watchkeeping engineer. This is the operational level. Those two years in school do not give credit for the management level.
2)There is no more challenging exams to get a 4th class, you must go to a cadet program to take the watchkeeping engineer training. Sorry oilers....
3)If you do the last year, engineering at the management level training you get credit to do your second engineer and chief engineer exams.
4)When you have done the full program including the management level training and you get the seatime for your second engineer you go and write the general and motor knowledge exams at the management level. In the UK these exams have to be taken at the same time. So you cant just study for one and then the other, you have to prepare for both at the same time. Then you do an oral for second engineer after.
5)After you have the 36 months seatime then you go back and do a chief engineer stcw oral exam. Thats it. Some countries have a 3-4 month training program for chief engineer that you must do - Australia and New zealand.

Theres no debate about anything, this is what the rest of the world is doing. Canada being an IMO signatory country must impliment STCW 2010 if it wants to remain legitimate. They cant just do whatever they want. If they keep up the existing licensing regime it will be a DOMESTIC licensing regime and will not be accepted internationally. If you sail internationally with a canadian license (no one does really, they just get the papers from the ships flag and use those because canadian laminated papers are not accepted internationally) the license will not be STCW.

This thread is really about what everyone else in the world is doing and what the point is.... that TC has to go STCW 2010 or else they are not compliant. Everyone else is doing the same thing... Now that 2017 is past, they can look at everyone else and copy their regs and they wont be confused anymore because the people in Ottawa are too incompetent to have come up with this on their own in time.