Coverting Diesel Engin into Dual Fuel(Diesel/HFO)

A place to exchanges questions and ideas of a technical / procedural nature. Go ahead, try to stomp us !
User avatar
JK
Enduring Contributor
Posts: 2696
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:29 am
Currently located: East Coast, Canada

Re: Coverting Diesel Engin into Dual Fuel(Diesel/HFO)

Postby JK » Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:59 am

Yes, we used to short circuit the starter with a big screwdriver on the smaller diesels.

But the big diesels with electronic injection, must be impossible to start at the local panel. Anyone?

User avatar
JollyJack
Fleet Engineer
Posts: 1128
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:57 am
Currently located: Eastern Canada

Re: Coverting Diesel Engin into Dual Fuel(Diesel/HFO)

Postby JollyJack » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:41 pm

ALL electronic controls should have a manual override.
Discourage incest, ban country "music".

User avatar
D Winsor
Superintendent
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:23 am
Currently located: Dartmouth

Re: Coverting Diesel Engin into Dual Fuel(Diesel/HFO)

Postby D Winsor » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:44 am

It's my understanding that there is redundant engine control circuit controlled by a key switch that is programmed to run the engine while bypassing all the safety shutdowns.
Troubleshooting 101 "Don't over think it - K.I.S.S. it"

User avatar
Merlyn
Fleet Engineer
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:19 am
Currently located: South Coast UK

Re: Coverting Diesel Engin into Dual Fuel(Diesel/HFO)

Postby Merlyn » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:58 am

:mrgreen: Don't forget you can start, stop, run, do cyl. Balance checks, advance/ retard injection timings and a million other things using an engine manufactures ( and other kits ) diagnostic tools remotely on more and more engine systems nowadays.
I wrote back along of an engine problem I experienced whereby the manufactures of the management system ( not the engine manufactures ) took over and remotely controlled all tests conducted on the engine from hundreds of miles away via Satelite and Bluetooth. This went on for some five and a half hours.
The diagnostic multiplug has been replaced by Bluetooth by lots of engine/ management manufactures.
Some diagnostics and their " cure " is now undertaken by the programmed ECU to make us even further redundant.
Recently encountered an engine required the DPF treatment.
No external help required here, no million pound diagnostic machine necessary.
Control panel shows a green light for normal operation.
Control panel shows a yellow light for DPF ( Diesel Particulate Filter ) requires " decoking " operation.
Control panel show red light, immediate attention required.
Making sure oil/water etc etc all ok put engine in a no load situation, press the appropriate button and stand back.
Self diagnosis conducted to make sure engine can take the process about to be conducted, injection timing retarded , rpm approx quarter to half throttle and engine gets red hot.
Seems unreal especially the first time
Runs for about twenty minutes or more, sensors report back all ok or not, engine goes back to tickover job done.
Yellow light comes on indicating job done.
And all you did was create a no load situation and push a button.
Another step achieved to reduce manpower, bet someone somewhere is working on an automatic no load situation and an auto button push and we will be out of it all, not necessary on the job.
Seems every week things are rapidly changing with the bias erring on reducing man hours inputs.
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

User avatar
Merlyn
Fleet Engineer
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:19 am
Currently located: South Coast UK

Re: Coverting Diesel Engin into Dual Fuel(Diesel/HFO)

Postby Merlyn » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:51 am

Re my posting 28 Dec16 concerning the quick dodge concerning the non starter the forerunner of what I used used to break cranks?
Nearly allways right behind the flywheel or across the rear main.
Sometimes the break was S shaped cross section of the crank?
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

User avatar
Merlyn
Fleet Engineer
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:19 am
Currently located: South Coast UK

Re: Coverting Diesel Engin into Dual Fuel(Diesel/HFO)

Postby Merlyn » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:04 am

IMG_0585.JPG
Steady trigger hand here
The quick dodge to determine why a COWS ( cut out won't start ) engine is a fuel problem or electrics using no diagnostic equipment whatsoever.
An instant correct answer.
Whip off the induction hose/aircleaner and gas it ( we use Propane )
However on this occasion this ship had no ER lift and the bottle is heavy and has to be Handraullically cranked aboard.
Up that steep gangway, across decks, passageways etc etc.
So here's the dodge you won't find on any CR courses.
Engine oil degreaser in five gallon drums, decant some into the pump up container, hand carry down below, crank over and very carefully into the inlet manifold small amounts to start with.
New hands overzealous on the trigger can cause pre iginition to occur, such a loud crackle noise when half the crank wants to go one way and the other half the opposite rotation.
Older hands may well remember the Bradex years here, ( ether based ) whose constant useage on engines with virtually no rings left would cause them to be addicted to its use.
Many engines I have overhauled with broken cranks caused by overusage of Mr Bradex.
Probably frowned on by the running scared merchants but carefully applied no problems and an instant diagnosis with no diagnostic equipment.
This engine I referred to started straight away and correct trigger application on the pressurised bottle used ticked over on all six like a sewing machine.
Turned out at the end of the day to be the pressure relief valve faulty causing a collapse of pressure in the fuel rail.
This engine requires 300 bar minimum or else the ECU won't send the injectors the necessary signal to lift the pintles to effect a start up.
So fuel problem it is.
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

User avatar
The Dieselduck
Administrator
Posts: 2746
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:41 pm
Currently located: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada (West Coast of Canada)

Re: Coverting Diesel Engin into Dual Fuel(Diesel/HFO)

Postby The Dieselduck » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:04 am

wow, seems a bit dodgy, there has got to be a better way to diagnost such a problem. no?
Martin Leduc
Certified Marine Engineer and Webmaster
Martin's Marine Engineering Page
http://www.dieselduck.net

User avatar
Merlyn
Fleet Engineer
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:19 am
Currently located: South Coast UK

Re: Coverting Diesel Engin into Dual Fuel(Diesel/HFO)

Postby Merlyn » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:49 am

No shakey fingers on the trigger, sure many other ways but with no kit whatsoever it's an instant diagnosis.
Haven't broken a crank yet, you can get it to tick over like a sewing machine, if you are stuck somewhere and careful no probs.
No need for pre ignition noises, pump up the bottle and off you jolly well go.
You're the governor mind here as you've by passed it.
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

User avatar
Merlyn
Fleet Engineer
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:19 am
Currently located: South Coast UK

Re: Coverting Diesel Engin into Dual Fuel(Diesel/HFO)

Postby Merlyn » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:25 am

:mrgreen: Maybe because of my name and wizard implications I keep getting transmissions that Martin is having flashbacks and waking up in cold sweats dreaming of broken cranks held together only by the S cam type break ( forming a kind of dog clutch ) allowing it to drive ( albeit with a rumble ) and to boot maintaining a reasonable oil pressure ( as on a lot of occasions this does happen. ) when using engine degreaser cleaner as per my writeups.
Concerned as I am that when walking alongside the engine he visualises that the crank is trying to rip itself thro' the crankcase and wind itself around his neck I feel I ought to perhaps explain further the induction of the engine cleaner in a emergency situation when one is stuck in a foreign situation without many tools and perhaps in the case of the worst scenario fearing for ones life.
So in order to set the new scenario straight perhaps a further explanation on this subject might set his mind further at rest and funnily enough may one day save him from, of all things the mighty crocodile and other associated nasties as after all none of us knows what the future might hold re trips/ work etc etc.
To start with I just realised that when I mentioned engine cleaner I did not mean the stuff that's been around forever, DEB chemicals, the trusty Jizer of the sixties but an ether/ trico based solvent, very pure and a bit above the 28 sec. gas oil on the Redwood scale rating and probably a better class of sniff if you get my drift.
Used it as a more efficient up to date degreaser now for many years when pin pointing for example older oileaks exact location.

So here you are on a 30,000 ton cruise ship on the mighty Amazon run right up as far as Manuas.
Ship stops at a large tributary and hook down proceeds to drop several tenders.
Tenders away hundreds of passys are away ashore for three hour conducted tours around the mighty Amazon.
However your job is on the tender going some nine miles inland with a local guide and about one hundred passys who are to be left in a large no of lodges built on stilts for three days and then bussed onto the next port the ship will be calling at to rejoin the ship.
Apon arrival you and the tenders crew are invited ashore for a look see and a cup of coffee.
Through wire link tunnels you go aware that there are several pairs of eyes watching you unblinkingly, courtesy of Mr Crocodile.
Arriving at the Lodge restaurant you are shown around the place and take great interest in the Gensets and small workshop attached.
Coffee break over you are escorted back to the tender by the local guide and you cannot help but see the watcher waiters nos have increased. ( i.e. The crocs )
Onto the tender after the guide has checked for any unwanted stowaways you press the start button.
Flies over but won't fire.
As this is a single screw job you think oh, well it's the norm., stop control jammed in/ Bowden cable seized or its that electric stop solenoid faulty on the injection pump which you will soon bypass to start.
Apon removing the top and side engine covers all is revealed.
There is no stop control, no manual and no electric one.
It's Common Rail.
Off with all the multiplugs, check for corrosion and bent pins, nothing.
Check pipework etc, no faults found. No chaffing to be seen either.
You then have a sudden thought and look at the ECU.
Yes, it's one of Roberts.
Going to the side of the HP injection pump and cleaning off the plaque it's exactly what you supposed.
It's that crap Robert Bosch set up of a LP pump in the tank ( feeding the HP one ) who spends his whole life submerged in fuel oil and who regularly goes on open circuit and thus presents you with a TONF situation ( turns over not firing )
However this needs confirming and unable to raise the ship and aware of the gathering audience on the bank adjacent to the tender you ransack the toolbox to discover a Woolworth kit only available, an adjustable and a universal screwdriver.
The crew at this point draw your attention to other watchers, two twenty foot plus Anacondas whose only wish in life is to demo what it's like to be inside a very close coil spring making a valve spring seem like a toy.
What you gonna do?
Racing back through the wire tunnel you seek out the Lodges handy man.
Back to the Generator rooms you see some old fashioned trico fire extinguishers akin to the latest type of engine cleaner.
Scrounging further you locate a pump up old dispenser together with some plastic piping, a spare fuel can and some LFO.
Back to the tender and off with the aircleaner you now desperately need some assurance that hopefully this is what the problem is.
Cranking over your steady hand on the pump trigger containing the trico decant its in on all six straight away bypassing the stackpipe, thimble filter on the stackpipe,fuel filters and sightglass and perhaps more importantly that crap Bosch pump( yet again ) in the tank

What a blessed relief you think, and all down to that engine degreaser/ trico and the knowledge of how to use it all.

What next?
You now thanks to the engine cleaner/ trike fluid you definatly know exactly what the fault is much to the interest of the watcher/waiters.
Like the old days you make a hole at the lowest point of the fuelcan and from the metal pipe you have just cut from the HP pump inlet you press it into the fuelcan hole and seal it as best as possible.
Plastic pipe an interference fit onto the metal pipes( no jubilee clips available here ) you fill the can and attach it to the nearest skyhook and ( just like the old days pre CR ) straight into the back of the HP injection pump.
Start her up, straight in again on all six buckets in line and fast tickover it with the guide back to the ship.
As the crap LP pump is meant to put out about 44 psi your gravity feed won't lend itself to above a fast tickover enabling all the nasties in the river a leisurely swim following you in case your cobbled up fixit doesn't work.
Now the moral of the story is this Martin.
Crank or Croc?
Over where I am we are in the practice of selling skilled labour utilising tens of thousands of pounds worth of diagnostic equipment so the Crank V Croc practice is hardly ever used ( or told to many outside persons ) as diagnostic kits have to be paid for (and yearly updates ) so this is always the prominent line of attack used.
However this knowledge is there should you ever need it in an emergency situation,
Used with a steady trigger figure pressure no danger of a broken crank or stay pally with the river dwellers?

Once used in your life could well be enough.
So the moral of the story?
Crank V Croc?
No contest methinks.
Converted?
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.


Return to “The Workshop”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests