Revenge C.R. Style

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Merlyn
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Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:31 am

Thinking back to the eighties when the CR systems really came out in force I recall one of those rare "good moments " ( you know the ones, few and far between nowadays but when it does happen it makes it all worthwhile)
Called out to a ship with an intermittent misfire, plugged in the electronic kit, FCR it and conducted further diagnostic tests as necessary.
Threw up " no. four injector problems " and at that point nothing else showing.
Scoped the injector, Noid lights test conducted and connected up the hamster kit ( spill return test ) and observed way over 10% return both on tickover and half throttle on no four cyl.
No doubt about it at all, duff injector here. Solenoid type, ceramics not out yet, waveform patterns clearly defective.
Got to cover your ass here with this new fangled CR and leave the door open to avoid any future conflicts.
Definately Duff but as usuall don't dare say that's the end of it as for if you do you will surely get bitten in the ass here, no danger, yet another learning curve to take on board here as I have well learnt.
The injector is without doubt defective but it may well be masking further faults that will not show up until the injector has been replaced.
Soon learnt this Symptom V Cause saying in the mid eighties and some of it to my cost.
Once caught never forgotten.
Chief on this ship is one of those who thinks he is getting paid for his presence only on the ship and that does not include going down below.
Here we have a real live BC, make no mistake about that.
For the uninitiated BC= Bus Conductor, knows which buttons to press but that's as far as it goes.
When I started out it was open enginerooms, no control rooms only control platforms.
Thus the knowalls were know as the " Bus Conductors " for obvious reasons.
Control room dweller in full uniform kit and no further.
Plus just to make things more interesting he is University Educated Chief and knows it all.
I personally thought his only encounter with the tools was at university in the lab/ workshop and he had never pulled a liner, had inaccessible sheared off broken bolts to drill and tap out nor even been inside a crankcase of an engine who had only just been stopped.
As I came up the hard way and did not find all those quadratic equations and calculus and third angle projection a natural take on board subject this man represented everything I loathed as basically although he had the tickets he was not like me who struggled with a lot of the theoretical side of thinks ( unlike the practical side which I took to straight away )
The five year apprenticeship learnings were somehow to be applied here but how?
No, I don't mean the engineering side here but the five year " wind ups/setups/ being set up for the big one, being set up for a big " fall " learnings came to my thought fore front as I had had a very good training in this important side of life and as such had been subject to many, many " set ups" and as such still remain on guard to these situations all these years later.
Like the Quadratic equations the key to it all was learning how to recognise the correct formulae to apply to what was presented in front of you wind up wise.
Anyway back to this University Chief who behind his back was known as " Boy "
Hated by the crew here was an opportunity to go straight to the top of the admiration tree but how?
He was in charge and everyone had to suffer big time.
Rather than come looksee at the job I was summoned to his office and made to wait in the corridor for some twenty minutes plus.
Reminded me of the old headmasters trick of being summoned to his office and in order to crank the handle and wind up the atmosphere of about what was to happen you would deliberately be kept waiting such was the importance of the mission.
I and my colleague were eventually granted permission to see the chief and I duly explained that no four injector was defective but that was not necessarily the end of the problem.
Much awkward discussions ensued whereby he wanted to be assured that this replacement injector was to be the end of all but I had already learnt to my cost at that stage that only a fool would grant that assurance as you could end up with egg on your face and be expected to refund perhaps some of your labour costs incurred to date.
After maybe half an hour plus I presented him with the scope and the injector testing printouts ( allways but allways do this again to cover your ass as this is not at all like the old days here ) and proceeded to explain it all.
Like a lot of these University boys I don't think he knew what he was looking at but I did make the remark " you do know what I mean when I refer to injector no. four?
It was at this point when we were almost thrown out of his office over my last remark by asking him what I meant by no four.
However there was a particular reason for me banging on about Cyl four.
We left the ship after being told he knew ( of course ) that it was an injector gone down but didn't know which one and had the owners had the foresight to carry diagnostic equipment onboard then people like us would not be necessary as he was well up on diagnostics as the University boys had been taught it all.
No, it would not be necessary for us to return to the ship to fit the new injector and see the job through.
Some new injectors have to be programmed to the ECU but as he obviously knew it all I declined to tell him so and so we left the ship.
The five year apprenticeship learnings were at the forefront of my brain for the next three days and I was delighted to receive an irate tel. call from him telling me my diagnosis was incorrect and that we would not be getting paid for the time we had spent on the ship.
We were instructed to attend the ship immediatly which next day we duly did.
Taken by the first down below we were shown that no four injector had indeed been replaced and the intermittent miss was still present.
It was at this point I knew ( drawing on my past training, no not the engineering side the windup/setup side ) that handled right this was to be a major COUP for me but also I realised that there could also be a major explosion taking place.
This was one that had to be handled 100% correct else repercussions would surely follow, no danger.
Talking to the first and observing which injector ( no four ) I soon realised exactly what had gone wrong here and explained to him the reason why and it became apparent that because of the way the Chief was he did not wish to be the one who had to explain it all to him.
As such this honour befell to me and drawing on my so far experiences doing this sort of thing I took great delight in informing him in front of witnesses what had happened here.
So what had happened here? What had gone wrong? Who, if any had dropped the bollock? What was the answer?
Come on you CR devotees/converters ( like me )
It's not a trick question but a fact learnt in the first early stages of CR involvement?
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

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D Winsor
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby D Winsor » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:49 am

Isn't revenge sweet when one is able to put a "Know it all" in his or her place :D

Where by shear luck I stumbled on the answer to the last CR Problem in another thread and I still haven't been able to figure it out even with the picture. It would be difficult for me to figure this one out, without the use of some of my own senses and considering I can count on one hand (with 3 or 4 digits left over) the number of totally electronically controlled engines I've ever troubleshot, I've decided to bow out trying to figure out the answer this question for the time being.

Sorry Merlyn :?
Troubleshooting 101 "Don't over think it - K.I.S.S. it"

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JK
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby JK » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:01 am

I dealt with more then one of those type Chief Engineers. They're incredibly revengeful BTW, never forget a perceived slight.

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Big Pete
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Big Pete » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:00 pm

No 4 Unit from the Flywheel end or old style from the forward end??
Seen that mistake a few times with L.R. always numbering from forward to aft while the maker numbered from flywheel to forward.

BP
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Revolver » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:25 pm

Merlyn wrote:- observed way over 10% return both on tickover and half throttle on no four cyl.
- Solenoid type, ceramics not out yet, waveform patterns clearly defective.
- scope and the injector testing printouts
- Some new injectors have to be programmed to the ECU but as he obviously knew it all I declined to tell him so and so we left the ship.
- no four injector had indeed been replaced and the intermittent miss was still present.
- but also I realised that there could also be a major explosion taking place.
-It's not a trick question but a fact learnt in the first early stages of CR involvement?



Just wanted to note a couple things i can easily re read during my thought process... Kind of talking out loud while thinking...

I'm currently drawn to this... What it wants to put in vs what it should put in:
"A major explosion taking place"
Literally, via the >10% return on tickover/half....., or figuratively via the "boy" having a tantrum? hehe

Waveform and Injector test printouts, any hints/specifics on what they looked like?

*Still daydreaming about it... Symptom V Cause...

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:06 am

JK,
Hopefully still gathering those airmiles and seeking out all those BC's and over the side with them I say.

BP,
Hot on the trail here and definitely in the right area, bit more elaboration methinks?

Revolver,
" A major explosion taking place. "
Of this statement there is one of these taking place every fourth revolution as this is a four stroke Med/ high speed Diesel.
However this is a controlled explosion.
The one I refer to is an uncontrolled explosion.
This being a distinct possibility when telling the BC what had occurred here without belittling him in front of the first ( well to appear to him anyway ) and portray amazement ( to his face ) that the obvious reason had not been picked up by a person as knowledgeable as himself what with his superior to mine education in life.
It was at this point that I had to draw on my being wound up / set up / beaten up/ bullied / sealed in boilers/ red hot crankcases when flogging up the mains/bigends up ( Doxfords ) and abused experiences during the five year apprenticeship.
Back in those days get it wrong and you would be told that " you would have to be taught a lesson, you would have to be shown who is the boss " and a modern day take on that would perhaps be likened to talking to the CE/BC with a hand Grenade in your pocket with the pin out, slightest mistake could result in a major uncontrolled explosion.
So the downloading of the reason for the cockup has to be done right so any explosions are contained to where they should be, i.e. in each cylinder only.
Or, perhaps the old saying " to blow up in ones face "
Ref. Scope patterns we ( in accordance to teachings ) store all faulty scope patterns in a " library " in the laptop used at the time, the idea being to refer back to them should the need arise and additionally they are accessible to other operators of same make oscilloscopes for reference purposes and maybe crack a similar found problem.
It rarely works but when it does diagnostic wise it certainly worth looking at them for the odd one could help you out no end.
This particular problem goes back to the nineties and as such is long gone from our library.
If you look at scope patterns online you can see where the faults lie, it's volts plotted against ms, (milliseconds ) and you can expand the patterns, superimpose / stack them etc etc.
Different world back then it all was.
Symptom v cause?
Bit like the older version interpretation of this viz;
Symptom, headgasket gone Cause? Faulty stat ( thermostat )
Symptom, exhaust valve seat burnt out, Cause? Tight tappet, / maladjustment/ thread let go in rocker arm/ screwed adjuster.
Engine running very harshly, Cause? Injection timing too far advanced.
Engine overheating? Cause? Injection timing too far retarded.
But with all this common rail diagnostics I find this symptom v cause is far more prevalent and as such I find it's doubly essential to cover your ass and make sure the management concerned are aware every step of the way as for sure the problem will, in one form or another come back and bite you hard in the ass.
BP's nearly there on this one.
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Revolver » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:34 am

Bum #4 injector.
'Uncontrolled explosion' and >10% return on #4 cylinder. Noid light stay lit? Find any shorts in the control wiring?

How many injectors per cylinder?

#4 injector vs #4 cylinder....Hrmm, specifics in the ECU and controls in respect to injector vs cylinder muckup


Spit balling here heh

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:51 am

Noid light on when voltage signal transmitted by ECU.
See scope voltage against time plotting.
One injector per cylinder.
Why did the BC have the wrong injector changed?
Why did he interpret the diagnosis incorrectly?
What was it he obviously didn't know?
Why did he pay the penalty of blanking off the engineroom in his University brain?
Why did he pay the price of " fame ?" by not even looking at what he was paid to look at?
It's not a trick Liner question but the answer is something everyone should know?
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

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D Winsor
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby D Winsor » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:33 am

Could it be that the number on identifying the individual cylinders in the control program did not match the cylinder numbering on the engine
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Revolver » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:46 am

Or firing order

Revolver
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Revolver » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:47 am

Revolver wrote:Or firing order


Probably not if it was only one unit misfire....

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:30 pm

Both Spot On here, a lot of programs in diagnostic machines over here spit out the faulty cyls, BUT IN FIRING ORDER , not from maybe the flywheel end.
I have to confess personally that I have done this " trick " of withholding this info. not once but many, many times since CR started over here in approx 1965 onwards and still to this day maintain a secret almost perverse delight in doing so when I feel the situation demands it i.e. BC lookalikes.
A lot of knowalls Chiefs go down on this one but the secret to pulling this one off properly is of course to keep a straight face when doing so.
I would guess it's an update on greasing the underside of the rails on the catwalk in the engineroom when you know the chief who " must be taught a lesson " enters the engineroom on his annual visit.
No apologies here to the uni boys who fit the bill.
Just hope it's not DW and Revolver?
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

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D Winsor
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby D Winsor » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:59 pm

Ha Very Good
I've seen similar issues caused by mixing up side by side plug wires on the distributor cap of a V8 engine or crossing the pilot air lines on an air start distributor. :lol:
Troubleshooting 101 "Don't over think it - K.I.S.S. it"

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:17 am

Revolver,
When you do think about getting that Chiefs ticket should you go the " upmarket " route, i.e. Uni route take a tip from your uncle Merl. and ensure you don't end up with that BC endorsement.
CEBC don't sound so good over here.

Dave,
Your remark about swopping leads takes me back to the sixties and my second ever motorbike.
First bike in about 1960 was a two stroke 150 cc job but in about 1962 I progressed to my pride and joy at the time, a 500 cc Triumph Speed twin which I had for many many years.
So here I am, into the second year of my five year apprenticeship getting into the famous Teddyboys kit over here and by buying a big bike ( at that time anyway ) progress up through the ranks of same.
Proudly ride it to work first time and it's the subject of inspection of all the apprentices in our shop.
Loads of comments re the blue ones were faster than the red ones but the black ones always handled better and so on and so on.
End of the day, astride the bike and guess what?
It won't start.
Other apprentices gather round and attempt to kickstart it ( no starter motors then ) but to no avail.
Diagnostics by all reveals odds on its that Amal carburettor problem.
So it's off with the carb, strip, float not punctured and all jets out etc etc.
No fault found.
Everyone has gone home by now and night watchman comes around to lock up and agrees I can put the bike in the workshop overnight.
Had to walk/ bus it home some 2/3 miles away.
Same to get into work next day.
Getting to work I see other hands gathered round my bike asking why it's still at work.
Give us the key they demand.
Key in, bike starts straight away.
Amazement all round.
Bike runs ok all week, big trips planned for the coming weekend on the bike with other hands at work joining up with their " gang "
Friday night work finished, bike won't start.
This time it's the distributor I am told.
Marking it's baseplate so the timing remains the same apon refitting it I remove it from the the bike.
Points out, Condenser etc and distributor cap carbon pickup / spring etc both plug leads removed, no fault found.
Back together, refitted onto bike, still no go.
Bike left at work yet again and planned weekend trips ruined together with my chances of progressing upwards in the apprentices " gang " .
Back at work Monday I am told knowingly by other hands that with their superior knowledge and gang experiences the answer to my problem is quite simple.
The timing chaincase contains oil and in the colder weather this solidifies and causes drag in the clutch plates upon an attempted start.
The answer?
Simple.
Pull the clutch lever three times, not two, not four, won't work otherwise.
Thinking this is a bit suspect re the windups I have already experienced I don't know whether to believe this or not.
Another hand performs the clutch lever trick and lo and behold bike starts straight away.
Unbelievable or what.
Over the next few weeks this performance is repeated thereby causing walk homes/ buses and ruined weekends.
I tell my friends about this new " trick " I have learnt involving the clutch and impress them with my knowledge of Triumph motorcycles.
Must have been months later the real reason for all my non start hassles was revealed.
Apprentices out through the wicket door before me nighttime would swop my two plug leads over, it became a contest among them as to whose turn it was to set me up yet again and wind me up.
So yes, I well remember to this day the swopping of the leads even after all these years.
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

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D Winsor
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby D Winsor » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:27 am

Unlike your Triumph Motorbike that definitely wouldn't run with the plug wires switched a V8 or 6 cylinder engine would still run all be it very very roughly.
As for the topic of air start pilot air lines, either switched at the Distributor or some junction close to the cylinders, being broken and or leaking. I've also gone on to a few ships that had an extra white or bright coloured mark painted on the flywheel, that wasn't there to make the engine makers flywheel timing or TDC marks easier to read, but rather a warning to bar the engine off that spot before trying to start the engine. Sometimes the extra mark on the flywheel would have been there for many years with the problem going unsolved even with many changes air start distributor parts and air start valves.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule when it comes to marks on a flywheel indicating where the engine will not or will only start, on one or more particular positions. One in particular I remember is a V4 Paxman Engine fitted individual cylinder air start valves rather than a bendix type air starter. I was once on a small tanker once owned by Shell in Grimsby that had 2 V4 Paxmans for pump/generator engines. I don't remember if the engine after the stopped if the engine had to be put on or off a marked position on the flywheel. I do remember that if the engine crank was not in the right timing position and one tried to start the engine, the crank would just rock back and forth and or sometimes run backwards.
Troubleshooting 101 "Don't over think it - K.I.S.S. it"


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