Revenge C.R. Style

A place to exchanges questions and ideas of a technical / procedural nature. Go ahead, try to stomp us !
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Big Pete
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Big Pete » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:54 am

I had a similar problem with the air start on a Bergen straight 6 main engine on a supply boat, Boa Fortune, ex Havilla Fortune ex Sterling Pegasus.

Port Engine always started first time, every so often the Starboard engine would refuse to start and have to be barred over to get it to start, always seemed to happen when you were called out of bed at 2 in the morning to shift ship round Aberdeen Harbour.......
I checked the distributor timing, according to the makers manual, and overhauled all the air start valves, but the problem remained.
Any ideas what the problem was?

BP.
It is always better to ask a stupid question than to do a stupid thing.

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D Winsor
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby D Winsor » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:41 am

Probably either a leak (cracked furle, fitting, chafed hole or broken line probably buried deep in a maze of other pipes) in one of the pilot air lines or plugged Pilot Air line (partially or totally) between the distributor to the air start valves.
Troubleshooting 101 "Don't over think it - K.I.S.S. it"

Revolver
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Revolver » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:29 pm

Merlyn wrote:Revolver,
When you do think about getting that Chiefs ticket should you go the " upmarket " route, i.e. Uni route take a tip from your uncle Merl. and ensure you don't end up with that BC endorsement.
CEBC don't sound so good over here.


Uni done, now for real learning for a few more years yet.
That's why I try to engage in the talks here, beside hands on experience, I like to soak up any stories or bits of wisdom to tuck in my brain to never forget...I'd like to see more posts in the marine engineering tips and tricks thread. That's a neat one.

And anyway, I don't think anyone would label me that, I have a great plan to ensure for people to like me;
No shore leave morale improves. Hahaha

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:10 am

Well here's a bit of " wisdom " for Revolver concerning D W's remarks on V 8 petrols, way back when for me.
His remark concerning plug lead swopping to generate a misfire took me back to my introduction to the old V 8 petrols.
The old firm where I did my time had two slipways and the one that took all our old paddlesteamers, tugs, motor gunboats, torpedo boats and landing craft ( JJ jobs ) was powered by of all things a V 8 petrol engine.
There were two slipways at right angles to each other and separated by a small road.
The V8 that pulled the cradle up and down was housed in an underground engineroom and the cables operating it all ran through tunnels going under the road to the cradle and the underwater pulley block.
This spent its entire working life underwater.

This old fella ( even back then it was old ) was a side valve setup, the tappets adjustment required a very very thin pair of
spanners to adjust them, your average spanner was way too thick.
Awkward job doing this adjustment.
Always remembered when a ship was in the cradle and the cradle was under load the exhaust manifold always used to glow cherry red. Scary stuff as this obviously was a petrol engine and vapour locks in the carburettor feed pipe caused by the heat would sometimes occur.
Plus the Fire Risk.
When in your second year you were sent to prepare the set up and run it up prior to slipping a ship.
Now other hands, knowing this would set you up by introducing a Miss fire in the engine that took five seconds to do.
It wasn't DW's trick of swopping leads.
What was it?
It might be in your extra Chiefs here or if you are going for Top Dog your BC exam.
As you like the tips and tricks threads you might like to crack this golden oldie trick?
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

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Big Pete
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Big Pete » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:07 am

Big Pete wrote:I had a similar problem with the air start on a Bergen straight 6 main engine on a supply boat, Boa Fortune, ex Havilla Fortune ex Sterling Pegasus.

Port Engine always started first time, every so often the Starboard engine would refuse to start and have to be barred over to get it to start, always seemed to happen when you were called out of bed at 2 in the morning to shift ship round Aberdeen Harbour.......
I checked the distributor timing, according to the makers manual, and overhauled all the air start valves, but the problem remained.
Any ideas what the problem was?

BP.

No takers on this one, so I will spill the beans.
When I examined the air start distributor rotor on the engine that always started first time, I observed that the lengths of the slots in the rotor discs that permitted air to flow to the air start valves were different. Studying the pictures in the spare parts catalogue I concluded that rotor on the troublesome engine was actually for an 8 cylinder engine not the 6 cylinder one.
So I ordered anew rotor for the 6 cylinder engine, and one identical to the one that appeared to be causing the problems arrived.
I mentioned this to the Super, who had previously been Chief on there. He told me that there had been starting problems before and a makers man had come onboard and changed the rotor. I dug through the scrap and found the old rotor, sure enough it appeared to be the same as the one on the good engine. After a bit of cleaning re fitted it and timed it correctly and problem solved.

BP..
It is always better to ask a stupid question than to do a stupid thing.

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:31 pm

Ten out of ten BP .
The V 8 ?
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

Revolver
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Revolver » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:21 am

Well if it's not swapping leads, it'll either be fuel/air or compression, eh?
Misfire in all cyln, what about that slide v/v - easy to tamper with?


That's a good one BP.

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:04 am

Nope miss on one cyl. only

Its ignition missfire.
Not a lead.
Takes five seconds to do.
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

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D Winsor
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby D Winsor » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:16 pm

One way to get a back fire would be to prevent one of the inlet valves from closing by wedging a shim between the push rod and the valve. No rockers on the inlet valves in an engine with the Exhaust over Inlet Heads and an updraft carburetor, just gap adjusters on the push rods
Troubleshooting 101 "Don't over think it - K.I.S.S. it"

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:12 am

No push rods here, it's an old sidevalve engine, think from memory it was a Ford V8 pilot engine which was an old one even back in 1962 ish when this trick was performed on me.
Tappet adjustment was either two screwed very thin locknuts or, believe it or not when no adjusters fitted measure the clearance between the valve and follower with feeler gauges on the compression stroke, make a note of them all, remove the valves and face off the necessary from the valve stem on the grinder, what a struggle of a job this used to be I well remember.
No stelite tipped rotators here.
Even if you were lucky enough to have a valve refacing machine calibrated in thous' it rarely worked out right and was always a hit and miss job and one to be avoided if possible.
Throwing a sicky was not unusual amongst the apprentices when servicing the slipway engine was on the horizon.
Or if trapped into doing it, off with the sidecovers, wait a while, box it up and tell the chargehand when he checked with you " yes, all within limits " and hope that they didn't rattle too much on startup before the oil got round.

This trick could be done on any multi Cyl. Petrol engine from your motorbike ( especially at the end of the working day ) just to screw you up which indeed ( until you had it done to you ) it certainly did.
Outboards would also be party to this trick.
So it's back to the ignition side of things and a very very simple thing to do which when it was done to you once you would go straight to it and await the next newest apprentice's arrival in order to " pass this knowledge on "
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

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D Winsor
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby D Winsor » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:42 am

Then it must be something to do with either removing the vacuum line on the distributor ignition timing advance or changing the gap on the points. Both will change the ignition timing. I'd put my money on removing the vacuum line, it's easy to do and easy to hide
Troubleshooting 101 "Don't over think it - K.I.S.S. it"

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:59 am

Nope.
Clue?
The kit used?
It's possibly used when cutting Klinkerite/ Cork jointing and it's not the half pound toffee hammer?
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:08 am

Just remembered an old chant from way back along.
One degree of timing equals one degree of dwell.
But that's got nothing to do with this trick/ set up jobby.
Just came back to me after being stored in the back of the brain for X amount of years.
( X being the unknown no.)
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

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Big Pete
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Big Pete » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:12 pm

I was thinking of something as simple as a piece of insulation where the HT leads should have been making electrical contact.

BP
It is always better to ask a stupid question than to do a stupid thing.

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Merlyn
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Re: Revenge C.R. Style

Postby Merlyn » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:50 pm

Good one BP spot on area wise but what and where?
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.


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