MAN User Group

A place to exchanges questions and ideas of a technical / procedural nature. Go ahead, try to stomp us !
TDC
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MAN User Group

Postby TDC » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:14 am

Good Day,
I just wanted to inform everyone of an annual conference called MUG (MAN Users Group)
I just attended this year and was the first Marine company representative since the groups inception in 2003. Typically its all power plants. The purpose of this group is for customers of MAN 4-stroke medium speed engines such as the 48/60 , 32/40, etc to get together and discuss common issues . MAN sales and technical attend and take part , provide insights ,upgrades new design information etc. The biggest benefit is that it puts pressure to MAN technical and Sales to fix existing issues and as well helps to build a personal relationship with the MAN guys. There is also a group email that is active all year round where you can ask questions, present issues and get feed back. As I said until now there has not been marine companies, but the management of the group are very keen to include MAN marine Customers.
Let me know if any interest and I can connect you to the group.
TDC

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Merlyn
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Re: MAN User Group

Postby Merlyn » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:49 am

Well apologies to Top Dead Centre here but this is one that I just cannot pass by.
Whatever the letters after your name MUG does not sit well at all no matter how one looks at it.
Member of the Institute of MUGS?
Now hereby is a talk by TDC, first class MUG.
Or introducing Chief MUG TDC?
A CV to a prospective new employer?
Member of the MAN MUG team?
Top class MUG some might say behind your back, this type of thing over here would be attached to you forever throught your career no matter where you went in the world and with the internet now available widespread cover would be achieved overnight.
The delay by MAN to come up with a blameless attachment looks more interesting by the hour to me and considering the time now being taken can only encourage me to monitor the situation even closer because all signs caused by the significant delay promise us all that this one is " going to be a good one "
So one out of ten here marking by the PR dept. of MAN and we can all hope that the failure reasons forthcoming do better, however this remains to be seen.
I await with baited breath and once again Top Dead Centre apologies
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

TDC
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Re: MAN User Group

Postby TDC » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:00 am

Yeah ,
here's another one for you GFY. lol
Looking past the MUG name its still a worth while group with a lot of insight. actually similar idea to the wk shop on this forum just on a lager scale and focused on MAN. I will pass along your concerns to the group. If you want to leave your contact I can forward it to the group for some lessons on proper naming of their group, as well as other suggestion you may want to make for improvement. lol

And the conclusion to the problem is that the 48/60 cr engine is discontinued, the 45/60 cr is the way of the future for MAN the "Game Changer" as MAN calls it. All of the known issues have been corrected for the new engine( although no story of how). Add an additional Auto back flush filter to the booster circuit, completely dismantle all pipes and fuel system components for cleaning , hope that no more failures occur and that's it FINAL ANSWER. Interesting to note we started burning 180 cst fuel 4 weeks ago and have not have a single failure. Leads me to believe temperature is a factor , as quality is close to the same. As there is no further research being done for the 48/60 cr I guess we will never know. Any way the decision was taken to stop the investigation and install the filter as per the MAN advice. Sorry for the lack of interesting conclusion.
TDC

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Big Pete
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Re: MAN User Group

Postby Big Pete » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:18 am

I never understood why the filter before the fuel module was finer than the one after it according to your earlier report, is the new back flushing filter finer than the original?
Thanks for the update, too many people never give feedback after solving the problem.
BP
It is always better to ask a stupid question than to do a stupid thing.

TDC
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Re: MAN User Group

Postby TDC » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:14 am

Correct there is the issue. There is a 10 micron auto back flush filter in the fuel module and only a 25 micron filter before the engine inlet. Agreed this is crazy. The new filter is an exact copy of the 10 micron filter in the fuel module only it will be installed in the booster circuit before the 25 micron duplex filters. The reason is that on the common rail engine the booster circuit has 15m3 per hr flow at 11-12 bar so its not the ideal situation for a filter installation with a fine micron. The fact that its 10 micron is not based on solving the problem but rather 10 micron supports the flow. There isn't an engine out there that don't seize a fuel p/p from time to time , the issue is that due to the design of the common rail and the 1600 bar injection pressure the tolerance in the components are very fine compared with a conventional engine and wear or failure particles or even moderate catfine normally would not cause too much damage. In the common rail one failure takes out other pumps and injectors as the wear particles move along down the line to other cylinders and then back to the mixing tank and back to the engine. May be the next day, next week next month one of these particles will take down another pump( the last one had 956 hrs) then the particles from that pump will take down another pump or injector or control valve and the cycle continues. This new filter in my opinion is treating the symptom and not the overall issue. It will take a lot of the particles out of the system after a failure but not stop the initial failure. My conclusion after months of research is that the common rail engine is a wonderful idea , if you look to the spec of the new 45/60 cr who wouldn't want to buy that. MAN and other manufacturers are being pushed by the market to develop engines to meet changing regulations SO2, NOX fuel eff, etc. Meantime in order to sell this engine they still have to be competitively priced . If you ask MAN for an engine that meets all spec , all regulation , all fuel efficiency , no breakdowns and the price is unlimited then yes you will get it. But we are not asking for this we are asking for the cheapest solution possible that is super efficient and meets all regulation. The result is the Common Rail. In order for this to work the fuel supply has to be perfect every time for the life of the ship. One bad bunker can start a snowball effect that will be seen for a long time( like an STD for an engine . The gift that keeps on giving lol). We all know from experience is not possible, even more difficult to achieve with the reducing of sulfur leading to higher ppm of catfines and fuel instability. So my final comment is that in theory this is a wonderful system but is not durable or robust enough to provide a dependable performance in practice. There is no fix for this , its a result of the design of the system and is something that has to be managed rather than solved.
RANT OVER

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Merlyn
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Re: MAN User Group

Postby Merlyn » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:30 am

Well there's a shocker indeed. You live and learn every day but I never expected that one.
The initial reaction is one of thinking so the production run of this engine is over and thereby all prior problems are hereby eradicated and effectively zeroed and we all go on our happy way well satisfied.
My mind flashes back to an old JJ exam question here.
What are the circumstances whereby CC does not mean CUbic Capacity?
Answer?
1/
When it means " claustine cover up."
2/
When it means " crap cover up "
3/
When it means " confidential clauses apply "
Now I am an outsider here and I don't know whether your arrangement is a genset one, ashore or afloat or on shafts somewhere but the seeming " writing off " of all your prior defects provokes the James Bond instincts in me and as such all manner of thoughts are now racing through my mind.
Again I am in the dark here, I don't know what ( if any ) buying power your folks might have over there and how many of this model engines or other MAN's you might run but for my money the extraordinary seemingly accepted answer and the purveyed "end of the matter" speech would appear to me to be most perculiar to say the least.
There have been stories of management folk being boxed up in a heineken brewery in Germany FOC, care of MAN for ten days or so which sure as hell beats ten days being boxed up in the tailshaft tunnel so beware of MAN reps bearing gifts.
Or 7-5% off the next engine/ genset order from MAN.
Whilst I take on board both yours and Big Pete's remarks concerning primary and secondary plus fuel filter set ups what about the other defects that you mentioned that don't even sit in the fueline?
Sender units and actuators were mentioned together with the magnet reference which leads me to think of crank angle/ cam angle sensors etc. possibly containing a wire coil around a magnet set up?
What were the conclusions drawn re them?
A super duper antiback flush filter arrangement won't help these at all and indeed their only connection with fuel rails etc. is via the ECU?
So what was the diagnosis concerning these?
So beware of that deluxe keep the cold out MAN /MUG liveried coat en route to yourgoodself ( possibly ) you'll recognise it instantly as it's a Jeally Bean Livery jobby to blend in effectively with your surrounds.
Oh, I almost forgot you are definatley on Mr Man's Xmas card list from now on in.
That's on the understanding you don't talk in your sleep mind.
T's & C's apply here
The CC clause applies?
Your kind invite to the MAN MUG group reminds me of similar conferences/courses I have been on whereby I have to say a lot of them appeared to me to be of a token esteem basis.
Take for example a two dayer jobby.
Arrive at the hotel chosen night before and don't know a soul so maybe have a drink solo at the bar.
9 am arrive at classroom, chalk your name on the board in front on your desk and intros all round.
Course leader makes light of things by reminiscing with you all and now it's eleven o'clock.
Tea up time.
He knows you all have gripes with whatever subject you are there for, CR/fuel systems/ management systems fitted to whatever make of engine you are there for but he tells you that this morning is intro time and after dinner we will all discuss these problems.
Now there is a reason for this which becomes apparent at lunchtime.
One pm arrives and it's down to the bar/ restaurant and we are informed it's all on the engine /fuel system whoever manufacturer.
Now any proper marine engineer realises that after a nice meal and a few pints FOC that all those razor sharp awkaward question lists he has in his pocket ought maybe to be downrated somewhat.
Back to the classroom and other engineers who were going to rip his throat out are now semi respectable in their attack on him because ( as was confided to in the bar ) he drank the same as us, good fellow, yes, he's one of us.
That night in the bar the instructor/ lecturer joins us as he is not going home for tea either.
The usual drinking session evolves with, by nine o'clock even the weak willed ones joining in.
By virtually matching us pint for pint by 10 pm it's a " the bigger the gin the bigger the waves syndrome " and by 11 pm 25 footers are now 55 footers and so on.( waves that is )
Someone's rod punched out the side went further than yours ever could, flew across the ER and even out the ships side?
( Conrod that is for the uninitiated )
The instructor lets drop that even when Wartsila lets go a valve its the acid in the fuel you see, nibbling away the stem under the valve head and fortified by the ale we all agree that Mr Man or whoever is not all that bad after all and more ale later we take back all we said about him as by now he is no worst than the rest.
The instructor is now well and truly one of us and we all drink to that effect.
9 am next day a somewhat subdued class convenes the edge well and truly radiused off all those awkaward questions list you had in your pocket, that went after the fifth pint last night, history by now.
Now approaches the master stroke.
The instructor states that by " working the dinner hour " we can all foxtrot oscar at 4 instead of five.
A vote is taken by a show of hands and the diehard drinkers find themselves outnumbered.
More discussions evolve but thanks to the power of the ale they are not in depth questions nor indeed answers prevailing.
The instructors last masterpiece is yet to come, as we have been such an attentative class ( and not asked any really awkaward questions ) guess what?
We have achieved all we set out to do so we can now foxtrot oscar at 3-30 pm!
All of this of course is to make sure that the questionnaire sent out is marked top dollar by all the attendees as to the way the course/ conference was run and reliabilities etc of what you attended for.
So to date all the promises of no further common faults not occurring this has yet to be seen by me and promises of fellow students telephone numbers written on the back of fag packets etc. as usual also amount to nothing.
However moving on from that I now consider the position TDC may well be in.
Not wishing to teach one how to suck eggs I would be very wary apon the next docking back at the ranch.
Straight down to the woodshed and hope that lurking lump in the corner does not have the wrong initials on the rocker boxes covers and indeed is how it was left.
Should however a new shiny six buckets in line be lurking portraying the wrong initials on the rocker boxes covers do not despair.
Straight down to the paint shop and ( for two coats ) I reckon about 3/4 gallon of banana yellow ( aerosols are easier ) to be purchased and forthwith applied to the six buckets in line.
The new transfers for the rockerboxes subsequently being applied should complete the job.
All that remains now is to hope that the Kojak look alike crew have no engineering knowledge when you are raided at 5 am Sunday morning and upon the gen. start up they can't tell the difference between a CAT crackle and a MAN murmur .
All that really remains now is to fulfil my input into the MAN MUG crew rename process, i.e. The " lost in translation unfortunate naming ."
Off the top of my head Machinen Underperforming Grossly would appear to be a respectable criticism although more springs to mind but I don't want the powers to be to edit me before this goes nationwide ( you know who you are )
PS.
Don't forget to wear the coat inboard/ out when you answer the door, i.e. Inside out.
PPS
Thanks to Big Pete re his following up problems remarks.
Nothing worst than being on the starting blocks with a problem and then it just exhausts to atmosphere.
In conclusion whatever you may think of the foregoing I have, to date one advantage over you.
My rants longer!
Shhhhhh?
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.

TDC
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Re: MAN User Group

Postby TDC » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:06 am

Well done!
" Machine Underperforming Grossly " its a bit of an understatement , but for sure gives a valid representation of the situation. I do see your point about the courses and the value obtained from such , however I did find this MUG conference to be a bit different than what you so eloquently portrayed. In this case the engine manufacturer MAN are on the hot seat and are not even the host of this event. The event is customer driven, there is a management committee elected from the customers every 2 years to manage this group. One of the benefits is an active email forum to bring up issues and consult with other MAN users who collectively advise on failures and experience gained. All issues that have not been satisfactorily resolved are brought forward the annual conference. Minutes are taken and actions recorded and submitted to MAN for closure. The chairman of the group keeps the heat on MAN and keeps the users informed of MAN's response . The benefit of this is that it puts MAN out there and highlights the issues in front of customer base that possibly has purchased upward of 1000 engines. So as opposed to us with our 2 main engines we are now part of a very large group of paying customers who's collective dissatisfaction will for sure catch the attention of MAN and provide some motivation for sorting out issues and keeping the communication open. For example we are the only CR user in this group to date so for many of the members it is the first time they were exposed to this. Fast forward to 2020 the new MAN 45/60 which according to MAN is the "Game changer" and will be the topic of all MAN sales for these customers going forward , now with the doubt raise about the reliability of the Common rail technology there will be approx. 30-40 power plants world wide each making inquires as to how the common rail issues were solved. Alone we are not big enough to create influence, just keep selling parts wonderful business model but as part of a group which has access to a very large customer base hopefully we will see more support. At least if nothing else its worth a try as we are getting desperate enough in this situation to consider to repower the vessel.

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Merlyn
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Re: MAN User Group

Postby Merlyn » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:08 am

Well that puts somewhat of a turn on the situation and from my view puts an entirely different slant on things.
So as I understand it Mr Man was conspicuous by his absence on your conference meet.
So you are very much the stand a lone here and the only 48/60 CR operator present.
All the rest are the ” old mechanical systems " as they are rapidly becoming known as and it strikes me as hard work for you as essentially you will find yourself talking to, well, yourself as no shared defects will present themselves from other operators
The boast ( to date ) is over 850 Cr versions have been sold and indeed NCL and now Carnaval Group have gone over from Mr W to MAN and I have to say I have not heard of any common defects with this engine.
Concerning other operators with 48/60 CR problems joining in your group I think that a lot of them will not be forthcoming, particularly large groups like Carnival.
For example I have been trying to determine EXACTLY what happened to the top heavy Tupperware dishes and ABB's clutch burnouts, centre plate, cover, oilpressure problems whatever but to date but it has not been available as general knowledge.
I know with the DE installations many gensets are fitted and when one drops a valve/ whatever nobody up top ( the passys on a cruise ship ) are aware of this as another genset comes on line, no speed lost, no port itineries missed hotel services run as normal and it's never talked about as our ship never misses a beat goes the advertising blurb.
I don't think a lot of folk down below are exactly overkeen on talking about problems encountered as it's possibly frowned on by their PR boys and all the reliability issues associated with their ships.
All of which seems to put you in the lone wolf situation which of course is far from ideal.
By coming up with this additional fuel filter it would appear to me that Mr Man has effectively told you that his take on the subject is " it's nothing to do with the engine or its design " and the problem is quite clearly outside of the engine and lies therefore in the fuel system/ missfuelling areas and as such the engine is exonerated and in other words you're on your own.
A 50k hit is serious shit hit but to consider re engining is absolutely horrific and unless the ship is 35 years old plus and you have had your monies worth it just seems completely unacceptable to me.
Don't know how old your engines are or what version you are running but thinking back the CR version of this engine came out in the eighties I think so ever thought of bolting a couple of tanks on deck?
You know the ones, they have LPG stamped on them.
Don't know if they would lend themselves to dual fuelling but maybe it's worth performing a financial exercise?
How's the running to date? What about the sensors and actuators who don't live in the fuel rails?
Seems to me a ridiculous unacceptable occurrence and one that has to be sorted before you jump ship.
( over the side, not ashore )
So I wish you the best of luck with your " lone voice in the wilderness " and would conclude by saying it appears to me that you might have to crack this one on your own.
Maybe get some test kit and suss it out
Go for it !
Remembering The Good Old days, when Chiefs stood watches and all Torque settings were F.T.


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