2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

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2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby EvenKeel » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:15 am

http://www.georgiancollege.ca/academics ... o-op-metc/

In my opinion, two years of schooling does not seem like enough time to become qualified as a watchkeeping engineer. I am surprised that TCMS has approved this course that includes only 4 semesters of school and two work terms.

Is Georgian the only school that offers this? Looks like the other schools are still 3-4 years for now. I have heard that the national engineering curriculum has been in flux gearing up towards a STCW approved course that fits the Manilla requirements for 2017 and maybe this the first one to be changed over?

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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby JollyJack » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:11 am

2 Years is a bit long for a Basic Skills programme, which is all that's required for 4th Class, and that is for STCW III/1 only. The usual BSME course is 10 months, credited 300 days Qualifying Service. Of course, the candidate still needs 36 months, 6 of which must be at sea. Other Qualifying Service is listed in the Marine Personnel Regulations, section 147, table item 2 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulatio ... .html#h-42

The 3 or 4 year Cadet Programme is an entirely different thing, requiring Cadets to pass all theory Exams for 2nd Class and permitting one attempt at 1st Class theory Exams.

Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship or Steamship

147. (1) An applicant for a Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship or Steamship certificate shall meet the requirements set out in column 1 of the table to this subsection and the corresponding specifications set out in column 2.

TABLE
Item Column 1 Column 2
Requirements Specifications
1. Hold a certificate No certificate is required, but the requirements set out in subsections (3) and (4) apply to the establishment of equivalency between the certificate held and the certificate sought.
2. Experience

Either having successfully completed a 3-year approved cadet training program in marine engineering or having acquired at least 36 months of qualifying service comprising the following:

(a) at least 6 months as an engineer, engine-room rating or assistant engineer, performing the duties set out in subsection (2) in an engine room on one or more of the following vessels the main engines of which have a total power of at least 500 kW:

(i) a motor vessel, in the case of an applicant for a motor ship certificate, or

(ii) a steamship, in the case of an applicant for a steamship certificate;

(b) a credit of 6 months of qualifying service if the applicant submits the certificate referred to in subparagraph 3(f)(i); and

(c) any remaining time in any combination of the following types of service:

(i) up to 12 months of fitting, erecting or repairing machinery,

(ii) up to 6 months of metal turning,

(iii) up to 6 months of brass finishing,

(iv) up to 6 months of planing, slotting, shaping and milling,

(v) up to 3 months of welding,

(vi) up to 6 months in a drafting office as mechanical or electrical drafter engaged in arrangement, detail or design drawings,

(vii) up to 24 months as an engineer or assistant engineer on day work,

(viii) up to 6 months as an engineer, engine-room rating, assistant engineer or electrician during the fitting out, laying up or refitting of one or more vessels,

(ix) up to 24 months as the person responsible for operating pumps on one or more tankers,

(x) up to 24 months as an engine-room rating or assistant engineer performing watchkeeping duties in an engine room on board one or more towed barges or similar vessels, the boiler or boilers of which have a total heating surface of at least 92.9 m2,

(xi) up to 9 months as person responsible for operating tunnel machinery on one or more self-unloading bulk cargo ships,

(xii) up to 24 months as an electrician on one or more vessels that have a rated generator capacity of at least 300 kW,

(xiii) a credit of 12 months of service for successful completion of an approved training program in diesel engines,

(xiv) a credit of up to 3 months of service for each of the following courses that has been successfully completed, at an institution recognized by a provincial government or foreign administration:

(A) applied mechanics,

(B) thermodynamics,

(C) machine design,

(D) electrotechnology, and

(E) naval architecture, and

(xv) a credit of 12 months of service for successful completion, at an institution recognized by a provincial government or foreign administration, of a training program in mechanical or electrical engineering.
3. Certificates and other documents to be provided to the examiner

(a) MED with respect to STCW basic safety;

(b) MED training with respect to proficiency in survival craft and rescue boats other than fast rescue boats;

(c) MED in advanced fire fighting;

(d) marine advanced first aid;

(e) ship watchkeeping practices taught using a propulsive plant simulator; and

(f) for the sole purpose of obtaining a certificate with an STCW endorsement,

(i) practical skills for marine engineers, and

(ii) approved training record book for applicants for a Fourth-class Engineer certificate completed under the supervision of the vessel’s chief engineer.
4. Pass examinations

(a) An examination on ship watchkeeping practices using a propulsive plant simulator, after providing the certificate referred to in paragraph 3(e);

(b) after meeting the requirements of items 2 and 3 and paragraph (a), a written examination on general engineering knowledge at the fourth-class level;

(c) one of the following written examinations at the fourth-class level, after meeting the requirements of paragraph (b):

(i) in the case of an applicant for a Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate, engineering knowledge of motor vessels, or

(ii) in the case of an applicant for a Fourth-class Engineer, Steamship certificate, engineering knowledge of steamships; and

(d) oral examination on the knowledge set out in paragraphs (a) to (c) and knowledge of the legislation relevant to the certificate sought, after passing the examination referred to in paragraph (c).

(2) The qualifying service set out in paragraph 2(a) of the table to subsection (1) shall include the following duties:

(a) preparing main machinery and auxiliary equipment for sea;

(b) shutting down main machinery;

(c) operating main machinery;

(d) preparing, starting, coupling and changing over alternators and generators;

(e) transferring fuel;

(f) preparing and operating evaporators and distillation plants;

(g) operating oily water separators and conducting appropriate tests to ensure the correct operation of those separators;

(h) preparing and operating air compressors;

(i) preparing and starting steering gear and conducting appropriate tests to ensure the correct operation of the steering gear;

(j) testing boiler water-level gauges under normal working conditions;

(k) operating boilers, including the combustion system;

(l) transferring ballast and fresh water;

(m) lubricating machinery;

(n) pumping bilges;

(o) taking machinery readings and compiling the data in the engine-room log books; and

(p) acting as assistant to the engineer in charge of the engineering watch.

(3) An applicant for a Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate who holds a First-class, Second-class, Third-class or Fourth-class Engineer, Steamship certificate shall

(a) after obtaining a Fourth-class Engineer, Steamship certificate, acquire at least 6 months of service as an engineer on one or more motor vessels that have a propulsive power of at least 500 kW, other than stationary MOUs; and

(b) pass a written and an oral examination to determine whether they have the engineering knowledge required by subparagraph 4(c)(i) of the table to subsection (1).

(4) An applicant for a Fourth-class Engineer, Steamship certificate who holds a First-class, Second-class, Third-class or Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate shall

(a) after obtaining a Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate, acquire at least 6 months of service as an engineer on one or more steamships that have a propulsive power of at least 500 kW; and

(b) pass a written and an oral examination to determine whether they have the engineering knowledge required by subparagraph 4(c)(ii) of the table to subsection (1).

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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby JollyJack » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:32 am

With respect, opinions don't matter, only the Law, it's Acts and Regulations do. The Act relevant to ships is the Canada Shipping Act, 2001, which came into force on 1 July, 2007. The Act and it's associated Regulations is here:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-10.15/

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/acts-regulation ... 001c26.htm

The Marine Personnel Regulations are here: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulatio ... index.html

For crew health and safety, the Safe Working Practices Regulations are relevant http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... ,_c._1467/ as is the Canada Labour Code Part II http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... .html#h-46

Transport Publications (TP) are referenced in Regulations. TP 2293 is relevant to standards for exams, qualifying service and just about everything else related to the Examination and Certification of Seafarers. The .pdf file is here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/en/tp2 ... p2293e.pdf

The complete list of related TPs, including Cadet Programmes and MED courses is here:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/mp ... ns-125.htm

Everything you ever wanted to know about TC and seafarers. Whenever you hear "I heard that..." refer to this page and these Acts and Regulations. Even the opinions of lawyers don't matter, it's all carved in stone......for now, anyway. These are living documents, they evolve as required to keep pace with the industry.
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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby EvenKeel » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:57 pm

Thank you for all the info JollyJack. I do appreciate the knowledge towards the acts and regs that you share as the expert.
That being said, with respect, opinions do matter and that is what forums are for.

I completed a traditional cadet program in Canada and I also presently sail with those who have completed the basic skills course so am familiar there as well. I am not sure if you checked out their website, but this Georgian program seems to be neither of those and I find that to be interesting.

Let's look at the following from the Georgian program outline for Marine Engineering Technician:
http://www.georgiancollege.ca/programou ... 0/METC.PDF

"Career Opportunities
The graduate of this program will find a rewarding career as a ship’s junior engineering officer (4th Class) on board commercial vessels throughout Canada and the world, such as bulk carriers, tugs, ferries, tankers, cruise ships, coast guard and fishing vessels. This 2 year co-operative training program may lead to career advancement to senior ranks onboard ships and to positions of leadership in the marine industry upon completion of additional (TCMSS) approved courses at the management level."

It is a 2 year all inclusive STCW approved program - not the 30 months + 6 months sea-time that a basic skills course candidate requires to get a 4th Class (with no exemptions) or the typical 3 year cadet program. That time difference in becoming an engineer from starting point to end point looks to be 2/3 of what it used to be. That was the point of posting my opinion. There seems to be a contradiction with the regs there, no?

It then states that you can move up in certification by attending courses - nothing about exams. It also says nothing about 2nd class exemptions or attempts for 1rst class. The shipping companies would not be happy hiring engineers from this program that cannot move up the ladder so these courses for 2nd and Chief must be coming down the pipeline from Ottawa in the next few years?

I cannot find the TCMS approved courses PDF from your link so I could not see what this Georgian program is defined as. That website is full of nonexistent links for the TP documents. Can you share an electronic copy or a fresh link?
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/mp ... ns-125.htm

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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby EvenKeel » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:23 pm

While searching around the TP documents, I found the Engineer Officer Education and Training program (TP8911E) which has a 5th edition dated June 2012 that came into effect June 2013. This document states what is required for the new style program and answers most of my questions as to what it will take to become a marine engineer in the future and also how to progress - definitely worth a read if anyone hasn't yet:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/Publications/en/TP8 ... P8911E.pdf

It states that to become an operational level engineer (watch keeper in other words), there is a course with a minimum of 1960 training hours.

Then to become a management level engineer (2nd or Chief) there is another course with a minimum of 1252 training hours. "This is principally intended for certification
as chief engineer officer and second engineer officer on ships powered by main propulsion machinery of 3000 kW propulsion power or more."

I assume you have to come back to school after a certain amount of sea-time for this Management level course? I could not find that info in this document but there is some info in the STCW document in Martin's library that states 12 months for 2nd engineer 750-3000 kW or 3000+kW, 24 months for Chief 750-3000 kW, and 36 months for Chief 3000+kW:

http://www.dieselduck.info/library/03%2 ... 0Guide.pdf

For the operational level, you need a 60% in the following exams as well as a 90% attendance:

(a) Applied Mathematics.
(b) Industrial Chemistry.
(c) Applied mechanics.
(d) Thermodynamics.
(e) Electrotechnology.
(f) Automation, Control and Instrumentation.
(g) Naval Architecture including stability and ship construction.
(h) Technical Drawing or Blueprint interpretation and sketching.
(i) Marine Law and Ship’s Business.

Also to become certified at the operational level you need an English certification and the Engine Room Resource Management. Not a bad idea.

The operational level certificate then will give you exemptions for the management level for the following courses:

1. Applied Mechanics
2. Thermodynamics
3. Electrotechnology
4. Naval Architecture
5. Technical Drawing

This is starting to look more familiar. Since there looks to be a second course required to become fully certified to Chief's level, that would help explain why the initial course is only 2 years long. If I am reading these regs correctly that is.

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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby JollyJack » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:37 am

That's jumping the gun a bit. It refers to STCW 2010, the Manila Amendments. The Regulations aligning Canada with STCW 2010 haven't been written yet, nor have the Exams. STCW 2010 does not come into force until 1 January 2017, so there's a bit to go.

TPs have absolutely no force in Law, they are issued as guidelines, unless they are referenced in Acts and Regulations. eg, TP 2293 is referenced in the Marine Personnel regulations, which is enacted by the Canada Shipping Act, 2001. Unless you can find a reference in the Act or the Regulation, a TP is just a guideline, nothing else.

A school, of course, can demand whatever they like, as long as the approval covers the required content in the Regulations and the relevant TP referenced by them. eg, as long as the complete syllabus for 4th Class, as found in TP2293 (referenced in the MPR) is taught within the course, they can ask a student to whistle Dixie in stereo or fart in surround sound, if they want, TC has nothing to do with that. However, an ERR with 36 months qualifying service and training, as defined in MPR section 147, and a seafarer's medical, can come in any Monday afternoon and write 4th Class EKG. 4 EKM is Tuesday mornings and Orals are by mutual arrangement.

When you "hear" or "read" something, check it out in the documents I have mentioned, all are in the public domain, I find them with Google. The MPRs will not be changed any time soon, the STCW 2010 deadline for compliance is 1st Jan 2017.
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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby EvenKeel » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:24 pm

Thanks again Jolly Jack for some clarification from your side of things but the waters still seem a bit murky to me. Especially if I was going to explain to a young person the best way to become a marine engineer in the next few years.

I have always considered all TP documents to be gospel, especially when there is an effective date on them. Adding to the confusion is that It also states on page 6 of TP 8911E:

"1.4 AUTHORITY
The Marine Personnel Regulations (MPR), as amended, made under the CSA2001
(2001, c. 26)."

Makes it look more legit than simply guidelines to me. If not, these TP's should have a disclaimer regarding their value as such.

Georgian College has posted that:

"The Marine Engineering Technician program is an internationally recognized program that has been designed in co-operation with Transport Canada Marine Safety and Security (TCMSS) and Canada’s shipping companies."

This approval must be based on the syllabus within TP 8911E. Interestingly, this TP document number used to be called "Three Year Marine Engineer Course Content" so it certainly looks like this new 2 year program is the replacement for the traditional 3 year cadet strain.

It also looks to me like Georgian is at the forefront of the conversion to the STCW 2010 Manila Amendments style course or at least in advertising their program as such. I suppose that could be considered jumping the gun but at least they are talking about the changeover - and that begs a bigger question.

Where are the updates from Ottawa about the proposed changes to our certificates? What are the equivalencies looking like so we can plan our career progression? Somebody must be working on this before the bomb drops in 2017 or is it all going to be hush-hush til then?

For example - would you write a 3rd Class ticket in the next 2 years if it is just going to be lumped back in with the 4th Class to an Operational Level certificate when these changes occur? Or, why self-study at home on my time off for my First Class to struggle through the remaining exams if I can just wait a bit longer to take a professionally instructed course that will most likely be paid by my employer?

Some major implications here for prospective engineers and for current sailors and I hope that Ottawa will begin to share what we are in for at some point in the next 2 years...maybe by then I will be working for a Chief from this new program that is 5 years out of high school and they can tell me all about it.

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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby JollyJack » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:45 pm

" Adding to the confusion is that It also states on page 6 of TP 8911E:

"1.4 AUTHORITY
The Marine Personnel Regulations (MPR), as amended, made under the CSA2001
(2001, c. 26)."

This means the TP is referenced in the MPR and therefore carries the weight of Regulation. Not all TPs do, only the ones referenced in the Act or a Regulation enabled by the Act.

So you answered your own question.

The new MPRs are being developed, translated to legalese, translated to French and translated again to French legalese. They will be released in the Canada Gazette part 1 when they are up for public discussion and after the discussion, the final form will appear in the Canada Gazette Part 2 for public review. If there are no other disagreements or discussions, they will come into force after the period specified in the Canada Gazette part 2. This is basic high school civics, how a Bill becomes an Act and how a Regulation related to the Act enters into force.

So, in contrast to "jidi jildi", I ask you to "swai, swai", it will come in time.
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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby JollyJack » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:59 am

I finally had time to open your link to TP 8911 and it looks like a pretty good good course, follows the IMO Model Course 7.02 closely. I did, however, find this in it.

5.3 SEAGOING SERVICE

(1) The experience required to obtain a certificate of competency as a Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship or Steamship or a Watchkeeping Engineer Officer, Motor or Steam Vessel, Domestic, is addressed in the MPR.


(2) Graduate candidates from the approved EOET at the Operational level must acquire at least 6 months of sea service on board one or more vessels of 750 kW or more propulsion power, performing engine room duties under the supervision of a qualified Engineer Officer.

Right now, as it stands, Section 147 (1) of the MPR sets out the required time and experience as ".....having acquired at least 36 months of qualifying service......." Looks to me like a 2 year course will get you 24 months, tops, of Qualifying Service. The following is part of the relevant section 147 (1) table item 2 (c) subparas (xiii) and (xv).

(xiii) a credit of 12 months of service for successful completion of an approved training program in diesel engines,

"(xv) a credit of 12 months of service for successful completion, at an institution recognized by a provincial government or foreign administration, of a training program in mechanical or electrical engineering."

So for a 2 year programme, you get 12 months of Qualifying Service for a diesel engine course (if the course includes 12 months on Diesels) and 12 for a programme in mechanical or electrical engineering, if that interpretation holds up. Sounds fair to me :) All you need then is 12 months actual experience before you're let loose all alone in a cathedral sized engine room with an engine 4 stories high. That's if you want a real STCW III/1 Certificate of Competence, of course.
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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby EvenKeel » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:56 am

That makes sense from the current MPR, however according to that interpretation, Georgian College is false advertising and TC should have an issue with that. So should the students.

They get 210 days of sea time included in the 24 month program and it says nothing about having to get 12 more months after graduation. Reading the syllabus, I also would not fully equate this course with either a diesel mechanics or mechanical/electrical engineering course.

Like it or not, it looks to be part one of two for the new and improved cadet course. This is the first 24 months for the Operational Level and then there is the next 12 months (or at least 31 weeks as per TP 8911) that will be needed for the Management level (2nd and Chiefs) certificates.

Having to get more sea time would also mean that they could only be hired as ratings or non-certified personnel which would cause union issues - unless they will be carried as extra or training engineers but not many companies would have that.

The graduates of this program (which was wait listed by the way as per the Ontario Colleges website) that just started this week will want to be examined by the Sarnia TC office in the summer of 2016 and if they pass, will want the equivalent of a 4th Class or Operational level certificate at that very instant so they can be hired as certified engineers. Even if others like me think it should be 36 months minimum, they will have an argument if the inspector says no.

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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby JollyJack » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:04 pm

Did you READ the Georgian College link? It's for a Marine Engineering Technician, NOT an Engineer. In other words, a Marine Mechanic, a course I taught many moons ago in NB. Yes, it is the first step on the ladder and opens many doors, one of my students from way back when is now a TC Engineer Examiner, another became an ERR on a tanker after graduation and bought a Trans Am, but it is NOT a 4th Class STCW III/1 course.
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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby EvenKeel » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:43 am

:)

Well, at least you went to the link from my first post after a week of this discussion. All they added was the word Technician to the title - the 3 year program used to be called Marine Engineering Technology. It is still the new cadet course.

The picture of the guy in his dress whites in the simulator should be a giveaway.

The Marine Engine Mechanic course is a totally separate one year course, also at Georgian, but at a different campus:

http://www.georgiancollege.ca/academics ... anic-mtme/

It looks like Ottawa hasn't sent out a memo on this course yet. I am going to stop here before we go too far astern and I will wait patiently for their official communication regarding this. Thank you for your time and opinion.

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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby JollyJack » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:55 pm

As I said earlier, opinions don't count, only Acts and Regs do. :)
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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby Big Pete » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:49 pm

"This 2 year co-operative training program may lead to career advancement to senior ranks onboard ships and to positions of leadership in the marine industry upon completion of additional (TCMSS) approved courses at the management level."

Carnival cruises could equally advertise that you could join them as Galley Boy and work your up to Master, with the same warnings, underlined above.

I think the Marketing/Sales Department of the College are trying to make the Course sound as if it gives you more than it does, to boost enrollment. More Bums on seats in the Classroom more $$ for the College.

Caveate Emptor.

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Re: 2 year program for Fourth Class at Georgian College

Postby JollyJack » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:28 pm

Glad to see I'm not alone here Pete :) Yes, it's n entry level as ERR or Trainee, butr I know at least one "entry level graduate" who is now a TC Engineer Inspector and Examiner. It,s what you do with it that matters.
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