Steam Tickets

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Vegman
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Steam Tickets

Postby Vegman » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:37 am

I was reading the post on Teekay tankers and the comments on Steam tickets which got me to thinking- why do we still have them?
I am Australian and we basically follow the British system as I imagine you do in Canada. So we have seperate steam and motor tickets.
As I am sure you you know steam time is pretty hard to get as there arent many steam ships around now. I got mine on an LNG tanker , but I understand now, even the new generation of those is going to motor propulsion.
A few years back I was on an FPSO in the Timor sea. It was an old converted tanker and had steam turbine propulsion so the engineers (at least the Australian ones ) had to have steam tickets. However , the third and fourth were Filipinos and once I asked them about their steam tickets and they said that in the Philipines they dont have steam or motor tickets- Just Marine engineers tickets. Now that I think about it I don't recall seeing anything in the STCW book about steam tickets either.
I would be interested to know , if anyone else out here has tickets from various nations - do you have seperate steam and motor tickets or is this just an "Anglo" thing. Do you know of any flags where one ticket covers all types of propulsion.

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JK
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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby JK » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:58 am

I have a Canadian 1st Motor with a 2nd steam.
I wrote a 4ths combined, a 3rd steam, then 2nd steam with a motor endorsement, then a 1st motor.
If I had had the steam time, I probably would have written the 1st steam at the time as well, despite the extra work, just because it was there.

I have not used the steam ticket other then to work on teapot auxiliary boilers in over 25 years. Of the engineers I know with steam tickets, there are several retired and a couple of others my age that are coming up to retirement. I think steam engineers are an endangered species.

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Ratherbeonvacation
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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby Ratherbeonvacation » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:57 pm

Vegman

If you go to the "training room" you will see I asked the same question a few days back. No real response from anyone. I have had the same experience where I work. I am the only Canadian Engineer here and the only engineer that would need an actual steam ticket. All other countries (over 12 different ones) have a common ticket. The reason I was asking was because I have been contacting a few people regarding getting a Power engineers license. The Official answer is you would need a "steam marine engineers license" and then you would be granted a level lower of power engineer certification. i.e 2nd class steam = 3rd class power.

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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby EvenKeel » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:21 pm

Ratherbeonvacation wrote: No real response from anyone.


People have actually been responding with some info for your training room posts.

From reading the forum, British based tickets seem to be valued because they don't hand them out like some of the others you mentioned. STCW looks to have pretty broad standards as with most international regulations. The majority of motor engineers have worked with boilers but not turbines so it doesn't sound prudent in my opinion to issue dual certification without sea time. I wouldn't feel comfortable safely firing up a cold steamer without some time running those systems under my belt.

This is off topic for Vegmans question but deals with yours. I will quote Jolly Jack (a TC inspector by the way - hope he doesn't mind) on a response from a post last year:

"STCW standards are set by the International Maritime Organisation and apply world wide. TC deals with STCW, not Provincial standards. By the same token, Stationary, or Power Engineers are Provincially recognized. Some Provinces, Alberta for example, will recognize Marine qualifications and award Power Engineer certification accordingly, but some, like Nova Scotia, do not. My Marine Engineer 1st Class qualified me to write for 4th Class Stationary Engineer in NS, Alberta was going to give me 3rd Class and allow me to challenge 2nd Class."


Coworkers of mine have gone to the power side of things by speaking with a provincial examiner about the non-propulsion boilers on the ships they have worked on. With a 2nd class motor, then you could write a 4ths stationary ticket is what I have seen here in Ontario. Some have also gone on to be nuclear operators or mechanical maintainers at plants since the knowledge carries over. The provincial inspectors will require the boiler details (output, etc.) and what maintenance you have performed on them. Best thing to do would be to sit down with one of them in Newfoundland I would think. Or whatever province you plan on living in.

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JK
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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby JK » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:50 am

Yes, I wrote a 3rds power ticket years ago. Compared to the marine ticket it was all theory. I let it expire, I wasn't paying the province a yearly stipend to say I was qualified when I had a worldwide ticket.

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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby Ratherbeonvacation » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:45 am

Thanks for the replies

Sorry Evenkeel about the "no response" quote. Kinda taken the wrong way. What I Ment was there was no response about why the Canadian system has to have a seperate "ticket" for steam and motor. I fully agree that i would also not be comfortable. but the rest of the world is at an advantage when it comes to this. STCW is a world wide system that me personally after sailing with only international crews (never on an actually fully crewed canadian ship) think is a very unfair system weh you compare with different countries. About the power engineers certifaication I know that in different provinces there are different rules. In Newfoundland You cannot even start to think about "switching over" until you have a Steam ticket.....which I cannot get because of steam time. This was after speaking with the head person involved with certification in the province. I have time on a COGAS plant (combines gas turbines and steam) with 32 bar boilers and a steam tubine all connected to the main switchboard which supplies the propulsion.....but TC will not accept this.

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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby JK » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:56 pm

I have only sailed with Canadian crews and have been ashore for a fairly long time, but my greatest peeve was when they slashed the kw rating on my 1st certificate by over a third, despite the fact I have a full 2nds steam ticket not an endorsement. One of the CEs I work with has the same complaint.
The fellows at TC say it is STCW and shrug. Sometimes I think it gives them secret glee to be able to do that, but that is only my cynicism.
Incredible that 32 bar boilers doesn't make the cut.Did they give you a reason?

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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby Ratherbeonvacation » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:43 pm

They say its not the main method of propulsion Even though it is all connected to the same grid. That was a long time ago I checked into that. May try it again soon.

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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby JollyJack » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:38 pm

STCW 95 is an international Convention to which Canada is signatory. STCW Chapter III deals with Engineering certification, both Motor and Steam. (III/1, Machinery space Watchkeeper, III/2 Chief Engineer, 2nd Engineer unlimited power, STCW III/3, Chief Engineer, 2nd Engineer, limited power, III/4 ERR)

THAT is why Canada has steam tickets. They are also included in the 2010 Manila Amendments, which will bite many arses by 2017, when it must be implemented.
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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby JollyJack » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:45 pm

Ratherbeonvacation wrote:Vegman

If you go to the "training room" you will see I asked the same question a few days back. No real response from anyone. I have had the same experience where I work. I am the only Canadian Engineer here and the only engineer that would need an actual steam ticket. All other countries (over 12 different ones) have a common ticket. The reason I was asking was because I have been contacting a few people regarding getting a Power engineers license. The Official answer is you would need a "steam marine engineers license" and then you would be granted a level lower of power engineer certification. i.e 2nd class steam = 3rd class power.


You probably missed this in the Training Room, so here it is again.



Re: Steam license?

Postby JollyJack » Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:48 am
That's the old Crewing Regs which died on 1st July 2007 when the CSA 2001 came into force. Now, it's the Marine Personnel Regulations, section 147. For a steam ticket at 4th Class, you need 6 months on a steamship with a propulsion plant not less than 500Kw, included in the 36 months qualifying service for 4th Class. If you have a 4M, you need 6 months on a steamer, over 500Kw, then you do the EK Steam and Oral (Steam)

From http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... -2007-115/

Third-class Engineer, Motor Ship or Steamship (Note also you need MED D for Senior Officers before you can do 3rd Class)

146. (1) An applicant for a Third-class Engineer, Motor Ship or Steamship certificate who holds a Fourth-class Engineer certificate with STCW endorsement for the same type of vessel to which the certificate sought relates shall meet the requirements set out in column 1 of the table to this subsection and the corresponding specifications set out in column 2.

(3) An applicant for a Third-class Engineer, Steamship certificate who holds a First-class, Second-class or Third-class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate shall

(a) after obtaining a Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship or Steamship certificate, acquire at least 6 months of service as an engineer on one or more steamships that have a propulsive power of at least 500 kW; and

(b) pass a written and an oral examination to determine whether they have the engineering knowledge required by subparagraph 4(d)(ii) of the table to subsection (1).


147. (1) An applicant for a Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship or Steamship certificate shall meet the requirements set out in column 1 of the table to this subsection and the corresponding specifications set out in column 2.

TABLE
Item Column 1 Column 2
Requirements Specifications
1. Hold a certificate No certificate is required, but the requirements set out in subsections (3) and (4) apply to the establishment of equivalency between the certificate held and the certificate sought.

2. Experience

Either having successfully completed a 3-year approved cadet training program in marine engineering or having acquired at least 36 months of qualifying service comprising the following:

(a) at least 6 months as an engineer, engine-room rating or assistant engineer, performing the duties set out in subsection (2) in an engine room on one or more of the following vessels the main engines of which have a total power of at least 500 kW:

(i) a motor vessel, in the case of an applicant for a motor ship certificate, or

(ii) a steamship, in the case of an applicant for a steamship certificate;

(b) a credit of 6 months of qualifying service if the applicant submits the certificate referred to in subparagraph 3(f)(i); and

(c) any remaining time in any combination of the following types of service:

(i) up to 12 months of fitting, erecting or repairing machinery,

(ii) up to 6 months of metal turning,

(iii) up to 6 months of brass finishing,

(iv) up to 6 months of planing, slotting, shaping and milling,

(v) up to 3 months of welding,

(vi) up to 6 months in a drafting office as mechanical or electrical drafter engaged in arrangement, detail or design drawings,

(vii) up to 24 months as an engineer or assistant engineer on day work,

(viii) up to 6 months as an engineer, engine-room rating, assistant engineer or electrician during the fitting out, laying up or refitting of one or more vessels,

(ix) up to 24 months as the person responsible for operating pumps on one or more tankers,

(x) up to 24 months as an engine-room rating or assistant engineer performing watchkeeping duties in an engine room on board one or more towed barges or similar vessels, the boiler or boilers of which have a total heating surface of at least 92.9 m2,

(xi) up to 9 months as person responsible for operating tunnel machinery on one or more self-unloading bulk cargo ships,

(xii) up to 24 months as an electrician on one or more vessels that have a rated generator capacity of at least 300 kW,

(xiii) a credit of 12 months of service for successful completion of an approved training program in diesel engines,

(xiv) a credit of up to 3 months of service for each of the following courses that has been successfully completed, at an institution recognized by a provincial government or foreign administration:

(A) applied mechanics,

(B) thermodynamics,

(C) machine design,

(D) electrotechnology, and

(E) naval architecture, and

(xv) a credit of 12 months of service for successful completion, at an institution recognized by a provincial government or foreign administration, of a training program in mechanical or electrical engineering.
3. Certificates and other documents to be provided to the examiner

(a) MED with respect to STCW basic safety;

(b) MED training with respect to proficiency in survival craft and rescue boats other than fast rescue boats;

(c) MED in advanced fire fighting;

(d) marine advanced first aid;

(e) ship watchkeeping practices taught using a propulsive plant simulator; and

(f) for the sole purpose of obtaining a certificate with an STCW endorsement,

(i) practical skills for marine engineers, and

(ii) approved training record book for applicants for a Fourth-class Engineer certificate completed under the supervision of the vessel’s chief engineer.
4. Pass examinations

(a) An examination on ship watchkeeping practices using a propulsive plant simulator, after providing the certificate referred to in paragraph 3(e);

(b) after meeting the requirements of items 2 and 3 and paragraph (a), a written examination on general engineering knowledge at the fourth-class level;

(c) one of the following written examinations at the fourth-class level, after meeting the requirements of paragraph (b):

(i) in the case of an applicant for a Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate, engineering knowledge of motor vessels, or

(ii) in the case of an applicant for a Fourth-class Engineer, Steamship certificate, engineering knowledge of steamships; and

(d) oral examination on the knowledge set out in paragraphs (a) to (c) and knowledge of the legislation relevant to the certificate sought, after passing the examination referred to in paragraph (c).

(2) The qualifying service set out in paragraph 2(a) of the table to subsection (1) shall include the following duties:

(a) preparing main machinery and auxiliary equipment for sea;

(b) shutting down main machinery;

(c) operating main machinery;

(d) preparing, starting, coupling and changing over alternators and generators;

(e) transferring fuel;

(f) preparing and operating evaporators and distillation plants;

(g) operating oily water separators and conducting appropriate tests to ensure the correct operation of those separators;

(h) preparing and operating air compressors;

(i) preparing and starting steering gear and conducting appropriate tests to ensure the correct operation of the steering gear;

(j) testing boiler water-level gauges under normal working conditions;

(k) operating boilers, including the combustion system;

(l) transferring ballast and fresh water;

(m) lubricating machinery;

(n) pumping bilges;

(o) taking machinery readings and compiling the data in the engine-room log books; and

(p) acting as assistant to the engineer in charge of the engineering watch.

(3) An applicant for a Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate who holds a First-class, Second-class, Third-class or Fourth-class Engineer, Steamship certificate shall

(a) after obtaining a Fourth-class Engineer, Steamship certificate, acquire at least 6 months of service as an engineer on one or more motor vessels that have a propulsive power of at least 500 kW, other than stationary MOUs; and

(b) pass a written and an oral examination to determine whether they have the engineering knowledge required by subparagraph 4(c)(i) of the table to subsection (1).

(4) An applicant for a Fourth-class Engineer, Steamship certificate who holds a First-class, Second-class, Third-class or Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate shall

(a) after obtaining a Fourth-class Engineer, Motor Ship certificate, acquire at least 6 months of service as an engineer on one or more steamships that have a propulsive power of at least 500 kW; and

(b) pass a written and an oral examination to determine whether they have the engineering knowledge required by subparagraph 4(c)(ii) of the table to subsection (1).

Yeah, I know it's a lot of info, but if you ask me the time, I'll tell you how a watch works, it's an "Engineer" thing. :)

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Re: Steam license?

Postby EvenKeel » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:54 pm
Ahhhh. Missed that word "Archive". Sorry about that.

However, it looks like the only major change is that it went from 225 kW to 500 kW. Still need those 6 months which won't be easy.

The Algoma Montrealais is the last Canadian laker that is steam as far as I know after the Quebecois went to the scrapyard this week.

Then there is this vessel but I don't know what her power is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Segwun

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Re: Steam license?

Postby JK » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:17 pm
Probably not high enough power to make it count.
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Re: Steam license?

Postby JollyJack » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:49 am
nah, less than half

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/4/v ... ails/92443

She's only 225 bhp, or 167 Kw, and a mere 307 GRT, quite small for a passy boat.

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Re: Steam license?

Postby Big Pete » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:28 am
Have to go Foreign on a Gas Tanker, they are about the only steamers around these days.

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Re: Steam license?

Postby JK » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:09 am
I think you posted a link to a secure site JollyJack.
Pretty steamer from the distance shots, wonder what she is like close up. A friend sent me a video of the SS Master, the recip pumps were like music to the ears!
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Re: Steam license?

Postby JollyJack » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:27 am
nope, google it, it's public domain

"vessel registration query transport canada" in Google's search bar
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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby Vegman » Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:22 am

Thanks for your replies,
I checked out the similar thread in The Training Room
So it seems that Countries that have seperate steam and motor tickets are the exception rather than the rule.
It seem to me that the big crewing nations, i.e Phillipines, India, Poland ,Ukraine- etc are into streamlining and making things simpler- just applying the minimum of STCW in order to make the tickets more flexible and competitive, where as Countries like UK , Australia and Canada seem to find it hard to do that- I dont know why - probably something to do with tradition. In the case of Australia its also probably also that our Maritime workforce has almost dwindled away, so no one really cares anymore!

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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby JollyJack » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:28 pm

Canada, UK, Australia and India set the standards for STCW 95. In fact, around '93 or '94, all 4 countries offered a direct swop, the holder of any of these CoCs could apply for, and receive, any of the other 3 country's CoC. For a small charge, of course.
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JK
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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby JK » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:05 am

that I didn't know.

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JollyJack
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Re: Steam Tickets

Postby JollyJack » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:29 pm

There was a Ship Safety Bulletin, as I remember. Must look at the database when I'm awake.
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