wages

In this area, you can comment on employers, trends, jobs, rumors affecting the jobs and job prospect of Marine Engineers.
wes
Deck Plate Wanderer
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: wages

Postby wes » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:12 pm

PerpetualQuickFixes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Canadians

Engineers immigrating here doesn't make the problem worse, sorry to dampen your doom and gloom. We want more engineers, Canadian engineers, that's the whole point...whether they immigrate here or are born here, what is the difference? There are plenty of jobs... sorry if I've misunderstood what you tried to say there....

EDIT: maybe now I get it? If someone immigrates here they still have to write TC exams right? Isn't that we all do or are some people more special than others? Thus passing those exams should make them potentially equal in potential to any of us, since that's the testing level. Or are we claiming that exams are a joke all around? I don't have that belief. Some of it is outdated...but there's still a lot of old stuff out there. I've worked on lots of engines from the 60s, older too...working on a ship with 2 compound steam engines with a coal fired clyde marine boiler right now... anyway point is...exams are just a baseline anyway. In every field you're going to have a lot of average and bad people...that's just numbers. How about a positive approach and consider just how many amazingly skilled marine engineers are out there? Some of them even Canadian...there is always lots to learn. We have a unique profession where you have a lot of different types of skillsets. Some are good at books, some are good at mechanical aptitude, not many are great at both AND a leader, mentor etc. Trying to think that all us should be like that is kinda absurd (yes that should be a goal, is for many.. we're all in different stages of development). Yes we need to have standards and I agree they should be better, but there's just so much negative attitude out there..sorry for the mini rant.

The last part about CSA...yes ending cabotage actually WOULD do as you claim - lower wages for all. The other scenario is dumb.

All tickets are equal value? Sorry I'm dumb.. please explain?

User avatar
JollyJack
Fleet Engineer
Posts: 1175
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:57 am
Currently located: Eastern Canada

Re: wages

Postby JollyJack » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:24 am

The purpose of Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping (STCW) is to ensure every Member State who issues an STCW Certificate of Competence meets the same standard. It says nothing about wages and conditions being the same. At present, only Canadian citizens or permanent residents of Canada can hold a Canadian Certificate of Competence and required crew on a Canadian flagged vessel (ie those on the Safe Manning Document) must hold Canadian Certification.

This will be changed to STCW Certification, the Canadian requirement will be dropped. I believe it already has been under CETA, Canada-Europe Trade Agreement. European flag ships (British, German, Dutch, French etc) have a "second register" which allows them to hire 3rd world crews. Once CETA has been ratified, don't be too surprised if 3rd world crews start turning up on Canadian ships. They are already well established in Canadian vessels with flags of convenience. (Barbados, Panama etc.)


The highest part of operating cost for a ship is crew wages, so these are the first to be cut on a race to the bottom.
Discourage incest, ban country "music".

User avatar
camshaft
Deck Plate Wanderer
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:38 pm
Currently located: The Left Coast

Re: wages

Postby camshaft » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:28 pm

"the Canadian requirement will be dropped" Do you mean the Canadian requirement to hold a Canadian cert or the requirement for Canadian certs on Canadian flagged vessels? I suppose essentially they're both the same anyways.
Is this decided? I've read that this may be an outcome of CETA but I've not seen where it is written or heard it said that this is the position/intent of the Canadian Govt. If this is indeed what's proposed with STCW then it's a way, way bigger issue than the May 2017 SSB fiasco. That was just a screwup - opening the Canadian registry to foreign crews is a direct, intentional strike at Canadian workers.
Race to the bottom indeed. If so, this is what we should be challenging and it deserves a thread of it's own. Was this discussed at CMAC?
I'm optimistically skeptical about this assertion as I couldn't hire a non-Canadian for my corner store (if I had one) without an exemption permit.

User avatar
JollyJack
Fleet Engineer
Posts: 1175
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:57 am
Currently located: Eastern Canada

Re: wages

Postby JollyJack » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:10 pm

STCW will be established in the new Marine Personnel Regulations. Temporary Foreign Worker Programme already exists. CSA 2001 calls for Canadian tickets on Canadian ships, MPR requires "qualified persons", ie, Canadian citizens or permanent residents to hold Canadian tickets. The MPRs are being changed, easier to change Regulations than to change an Act. Port State Control and IMO requires Certificates issued by the flag State. STCW Certificates are interchangeable world wide.
Discourage incest, ban country "music".

User avatar
camshaft
Deck Plate Wanderer
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:38 pm
Currently located: The Left Coast

Re: wages

Postby camshaft » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:19 am

Ok, lets look at this a bit. From CSA 2001;

Certificates
Marginal note:Positions on board Canadian vessels

87 Every person who is employed on board a Canadian vessel in a position in respect of which a certificate is required under this Part shall hold the certificate and comply with its terms and conditions.

2001, c. 26, s. 87; 2017, c. 26, s. 41(F).

Previous Version
Marginal note:Eligibility

88 (1) Only a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act may hold a certificate of competency that is issued under this Part.
Marginal note:Foreign certificates of competency

(2) The Minister may, on application by a person described in subsection (1), issue a certificate of competency in respect of certain requirements under this Act to the holder of a certificate of competency that was issued under the laws of a foreign state if the Minister is satisfied that the requirements under those laws for the foreign certificate meet or exceed the requirements under this Act. Before issuing the certificate, the Minister may require that the holder take an examination set by the Minister.

2001, c. 26, ss. 88, 323; 2017, c. 26, s. 41(F).

Previous Version
Marginal note:Acceptance of foreign certificates

89 (1) If the government of a foreign state has entered into a reciprocal arrangement with the Government of Canada to accept certificates of competency issued under this Part in lieu of certificates of competency of that state and if the Minister is satisfied that the requirements under the laws of the foreign state for a certificate of competency meet or exceed the requirements under this Act, the Minister may direct, subject to any conditions that the Minister specifies, that the foreign certificate may be accepted in lieu of a certificate of competency issued under this Part.

So section 88 seems to say that only Canadian citizens or permanent residents may hold a Canadian cert - pretty clear. But is section 89(1) the avenue for STCW tickets to be accepted in lieu of a Canadian cert?

User avatar
camshaft
Deck Plate Wanderer
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:38 pm
Currently located: The Left Coast

Re: wages

Postby camshaft » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:48 am

The MPR;

111 Before a certificate of competency or an endorsement is issued to an applicant, the applicant shall provide the examiner with

(a) proof that the applicant is a qualified person;

I don't see anything in the current MPR about citizenship. I'm not sure what "qualified person" means regarding the CSA and MPR but that probably doesn't matter, what matters is what the govt plans to change the MPR to do. Are you saying that the MPR will be changed to allow any STCW cert to be "proof that the applicant is a qualified person" and thus work on a Canadian vessel? If "STCW Certificates are interchangeable world wide" does that mean I can get a British or Japanese certificate and vice versa?

Now possibly CETA brings in something similar only just with the EU.

Thx for the insight on this.

PerpetualQuickFixes
Tanktop Cleaner
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:10 pm
Currently located: Canada

Re: wages

Postby PerpetualQuickFixes » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:59 pm

wes wrote:PerpetualQuickFixes:

Engineers immigrating here doesn't make the problem worse, sorry to dampen your doom and gloom. We want more engineers, Canadian engineers, that's the whole point...whether they immigrate here or are born here, what is the difference? There are plenty of jobs... sorry if I've misunderstood what you tried to say there....

The last part about CSA...yes ending cabotage actually WOULD do as you claim - lower wages for all. The other scenario is dumb.


Do you understand how supply and demand determines a value?

If there were 1095 people immigrating to Canada every day, and there that much more houses being built. What would that do to housing prices, land, or rent?
Now let's take a quick look at reality.
Canada is admitting 400k new immigrants every year, and "will not let it dip below 300k", and has done roughly the same for the last two decades.
Have you paid more or less for real estate of any kind over even last 10 years? How about that as a fraction of your earnings?

So what happens if 1 million marine engineers show up tomorrow. Hypothetical number, purely for a thought experiment.
Do you think the wage for engineers would be more or less?
Would that change if they fly in from India just to work, or become """"Indian-Canadians"""" whatever that means? Still one million extra bodies in the labour pool.


Return to “General Job topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests